Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.
According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.
The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”
The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.
In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.
Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.
A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.
There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”
Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.
So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.
Well you didn't get me...I didn't write the stories...Numerous researchers into actual history revealed this stuff...Most of those people know that at least many of the writings of Ignatius are forgeries and some figure they are all forged...
Just like the rest of your religion's forged history...Even Catholics admit to that...
If I was a Catholic I'd seriously research this stuff to make sure I wasn't blindly following a false religion...
Makes a huge difference since we can see the existence of your religion which follows Peter...
Sure Jesus made Peter a little rock...But Jesus distinguished between that little rock and the rock of Gibraltar...He built the church on that mountain of a rock, not a stone...
New fiction???
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Looks pretty ancient to me...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It ought to be readily apparent just by believing God that He didn't wait around to see when we did enough good works to make it into heaven spiritually...
So, y’all do not believe the Bible has everything in it to be saved and lead a Christian life? Just what else is needed? Traditions is not an answer.
That is so easy to understand. If that is the only answer y’all have, I feel sorry for y’all.
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It is without question Satan that breeds the kind of deception that catholic ‘theology’ brings about.
Truth always helps every conversation about God’s word.
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I don't think it to be a broad brush at all - Look into the known insertions and forgeries, and it is easy to conclude the motive. That it is institutional in nature goes without saying too. I tried to give your traditional history a fair shake, I really did, spending a year or better proving and proofing your tradition and catechism, at a time when my motive was a pure quest for truth... Needless to say, I didn't find it there.
tell me: how I am supposed to be sure that any ancient text was actually penned by the author to which it is attributed, especially since the original manuscripts have all perished?
There are several means, but lets get right down to the Bible itself, eh? isn't that where you are going? 'If I don't believe your church, how can I believe the Bible?'... Isn't that the play?
What kind of a dumb question is that? We are all sinners.
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>> “since you have no one “final authority” by which you can say which Protestant interpretation of Scripture is *correct*” <<
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I guess catholics will never get it.
All “interpretations” of the word are false. All interpretations are “Private.”
It is the plain word itself, without the padding men insist on stuffing around it, that is truth.
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1. God's infallible word is recorded in scripture just as He directed it to be.
2. The Holy Spirit was given to born again individual to be able to infallibly determine what those words mean.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
Now, if the Holy Spirit was given us that we might "understand" would you still suggest it's fallible? Would you still suggest it's unnkowable? Would you still say it's "by human authority" when scripture says those who have been born again have been born of the Spirit and it is He would gives us understanding?
Stop putting the Catholic Church in the place of the Holy Spirit where it doesn't belong.
If we have accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are not lost. Have you accepted Him?
I will repeat it here.
Only those called by God, born from above, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit are part of the ekklesia of Christ. It includes all of those "called out" throughout history. That is the invisible ekklesia as only God knows who they all are. The local "assemblies" are members of the universal ekklesia and are the visible part of that ekklesia. Christ is the head of that ekklesia and present with them when meeting with as few as two or three. There is no single earthly organized hierarchical structure such as the Catholic Church would have you believe.
You must be talking about some of the Catholics on here. Some are very, very arrogant. You need prayers.
What else is more important than God’s Word? Just because men started traditions does not make them right.
If your point was to illustrate the lack of understanding of the preacher yes I do. It's preachers like that who don't know scripture that lead people into all kinds of error. The answer to the man's question was right in the same passage.
When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again Nicodemus immediately asked how he could enter the womb and be born a second time. It's at that point that Jesus said "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit" but He didn't stop there. He continued by re-phrasing it saying "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit". Being born in the flesh is a water birth. The amniotic fluid is water. "Her water broke" is a common phrase meaning birth is eminent. Obviously we need to be born of the flesh in order to be born again from above.
So yes, I see your point. That preacher has no business being a preacher. And those who would claim "being born of the water" is something else are false teachers because Jesus clearly stated what it meant.
I often think we would do well in opposing abortion on demand to point to the fact that the new life builds in the water world the body they will use in the air world, then point to Jesus confirmation of this reality and it’s importance in coming to the Grace of God to see His Kingdom. Look at how many our age has denied the opportunity.
Those who support abortion and those who support those who support abortion will have hell to pay.
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