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To: daniel1212

Did you check the link that verifies it?


194 posted on 04/25/2015 7:08:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Did you check the link that verifies it?

I did not say it was not an actual statement, but that as used by itself it is out of context and misleading. And the link is to the comments. Going above them we see,

From these paragraphs, it should be obvious what Luther is driving at. It is the job of the True Church- those who believe and trust only in Christ's righteousness by faith, to call the visible church to repentance. The visible church will claim to be God speaking. The visible church may claim to be that authority which determined the Canon. But if the visible church is in rebellion against God, it is the task of the true Christian to point her back to her master.

Glad to see you affirm that, or did you paste this as if Luther was affirming Rome was to be submitted to as the stewards of Scripture? If not, just what purpose does this statement serve?

202 posted on 04/25/2015 7:27:47 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation; daniel1212

Did you check the link that dan supplied that verifies the quote is badly taken out of context --- thus not proving one whit of that which trotting it out seems to be trying to establish?

Excerpt (of summation) from the link daniel provided;

The quote as cited by Roman Catholics has nothing to do with an infallible Church declaring the contents of Scripture. The quote isn't discussing canonicity. The quote isn't discussing if Rome gave us an infallible list of biblical books. Rather, the quote is part of an argument based on Old Testament Israel persecuting God’s true people, and the Roman Catholic Church persecuting the Reformers. This is made clear as Luther continues. Old Testament Judaism had God's law. does this mean they were the ones who infallibly declared what that law was?
“But what is now our defense? And what is the ground on which we can hold our own against such offense and continue to defy those people? It is nothing else than the masterly statement St. Paul employs in Rom. 9:7: “Not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants.” Not all who bear the name are Israelites; or, as the saying goes: “Not all who carry long knives are cooks.” Thus not all who lay claim to the title “church” are the church. There is often a great difference between the name and the reality. The name is general. All are called God’s people, children of Abraham, Christ’s disciples and members; but this does not mean that they all are what the name signifies. For the name “church” includes many scoundrels and rascals who refused to obey God’s Word and acted contrary to it. Yet they were called heirs and successors of the holy patriarchs, priests, and prophets. To be sure, they had God’s Law and promise, the temple, and the priesthood. In fact, they should have been God’s people; but they practiced idolatry so freely under the cloak of the name “church” that God was forced to say: “This shall no longer be My temple and priesthood. My people shall no longer be My people. But to those who are not My people it shall be said: ‘You are sons of the living God’ ” (Hos. 1:10; 2:23).” [LW 24:304].

Luther realizes that even within the corrupt papacy, the true church exists:

“Thus we are also compelled to say: “I believe and am sure that the Christian Church has remained even in the papacy. On the other hand, I know that most of the papists are not the Christian Church, even though they give everyone the impression that they are. Today our popes, cardinals, and bishops are not God’s apostles and bishops; they are the devil’s. And their people are not God’s people; they are the devil’s. And yet some of the papists are true Christians, even though they, too, have been led astray, as Christ foretold in Matt. 24:24. But by the grace of God and with His help they have been preserved in a wonderful manner.” [LW 24:305].

“In the meantime we adhere to the distinction made here by Christ and do not regard as Christendom those who do not hold truly and absolutely to what Christ taught, gave, and ordained, no matter how great, holy, and learned they may be. We tell them that they are the devil’s church. On the other hand, we want to acknowledge and honor as the true bride of Christ those who remain faithful to His pure Word and have no other comfort for their hearts than this Savior, whom they have received and confessed in Baptism and in whose name they have partaken of the Sacrament. These are the true church. It is not found in only one place, as, for example, under the pope; but it exists over the entire earth wherever Christians are found. Outwardly they may be scattered here and there, but they meet in the words of the Creed: “I believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was born, suffered, and died for us on the cross.” In like manner, they pray: “Our Father who art in heaven.” They share the same Spirit, Word, and Sacrament. They all lead the same holy and blessed life, each one according to his calling, whether father, mother, master, servant, etc. Thus whatever we preach, believe, and live, this they all preach, believe, and live. Physically separated and scattered here and there throughout the wide world, we are nevertheless gathered and united in Christ.”[LW 24:309].

From these paragraphs, it should be obvious what Luther is driving at. It is the job of the True Church- those who believe and trust only in Christ's righteousness by faith, to call the visible church to repentance. The visible church will claim to be God speaking. The visible church may claim to be that authority which determined the Canon. But if the visible church is in rebellion against God, it is the task of the true Christian to point her back to her master.


203 posted on 04/25/2015 7:28:38 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: Salvation; daniel1212; BlueDragon
Did you check the link that verifies it?

It doesn't verify it.  It refutes it. The Swan article doesn't contain your quote from #22.  Nor do any of the comment. But I checked, and just as the Swan article suggests, the verbatim MISquote is all over various Catholic sites.  I wonder who it was that first mangled it and put it out there.  They've done a disservice to you.  You relied on them for truth, and they didn't deliver.  I do a fair amount of research as part of my job.  You have to watch out for these "mystery meat" quotes.  If you don't have a primary source, and the subject is controversial, you're at risk of getting burned.  Just sayin ...

Peace,

SR
230 posted on 04/25/2015 8:21:53 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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