Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
AMEN Old Yeller!
In any event, we would all do well to be more civil to one another across denominational lines. That is particularly true when we perceive ourselves to be provoked.
God bless you and yours.
THAT settles the debate then.
And those who believe are made perfect through Christ. No further suffering or pennance needed. Christ is sufficient.
It was once asked, if you could choose just one book of the Bible to have in your position, and none other were available, what would that book be?...I could only narrow it down to two, and that with difficulty...but for me it would be the Book of John or the Book of Revelations. I cannot yet choose between the two.
Showing someone where they are in error using Scripture is NOT “bashing” anyone.
Oh ..now that’s an interesting remark....do please enlarge on that. I’m interested. Care to “teach”?
That is a GREAT question! If I had to choose, it would be Ephesians. To me the most wonderful letter from God to us ever put down in writing.
So give us an example of using Scripture to correct both what you consider “bashing” and “not bashing”.
Because when someone says that the Catholic church is wrong because Scripture teaches thus and they are accused of “bashing” then there’s nothing left to do but not use Scripture and I’m pretty sure that’s just what the enemy would like.
I saw your post that you had some numbers on this? What are they and how did you arrive at them?
As you know, most of the posts right now that are critical of the Catholic Church are coming from RnMomof7. Prior to her posting so frequently, which began a few months ago, there were far more threads of the “here’s why Protestants are wrong,” and “I’m a former Protestant” type than threads critical of Catholicism.
One thing for sure, though, is that there are far more Catholics personally attacking Protestants for posting articles critical of Catholicism than the other way around. It’s exactly like the homosexual lobby. Anything critical of the Catholic Church can’t be tolerated. Something to be considered is that Protestants consider God - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - to be perfect. And we consider God’s Word to be perfect. We do not, though, consider a church or the church on earth to be perfect. But Catholics do, and that leads to all sorts of twisting, lying and lack of forthrightness, humility, and integrity in order to protect the Catholic Church - as if that somehow pleases God, when God says that He shows no partiality. Even though it’s only supposed to be some very narrow things about the Catholic Church that are infallible, nobody is quite sure what and just about everything and everyone associated with it gets defended, right or wrong, or something wrong gets dismissed as just individual conduct or old news or exaggeration or the messenger is blamed for reporting the bad news. There’s the attitude of the defense attorney and “of course my client is innocent.” But the things that serve the Lord are the unvarnished truth, justice, and humility - not reflexive contortions to defend people and institutions because they are in “His church.”
Hey, BG, are you going to now complain about “bashing” when your fellow Catholics compare other Christians to Lucifer and call them names?
Are you going to be an equal opportunity complainer?
Or does that only go for those who use Scripture?
Count me in on that.
I do hope he can do it without “bashing” though.......
I’d pick Ephsians from the NT and Isaiah from the OT.
Me too! I’m in!
YEP, you’re exactly right: Ephesians and Isaiah. GMTA, mm!
Thanks; my former Pastor and Bible School Teacher will be so happy.
Did it hit a nerve close to home?
But .. before the Wedding will be “The Final Harvest”.
“... the fields are white unto harvest”.
They say the flak is thickest when you’re over the target.
Christ died for our sins.
But we have to do our part too.
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