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To: Mrs. Don-o; daniel1212
Latching onto dubious non-doctrinal statements seems to show polemicism rather than the patient discernment of the truth. Lobbing one dubious specimen after another into the discussion is a disorienting rhetorical ploy, not a way to advance understanding

The problem with your assertion is that these are not dubious statements.

They are consistent with official catholic teachings regarding Mary.

All of the "dubious" quotes provided are from people who the catholic church would consider to be doctors, saints or other reputable people in catholicism.

As I noted earlier this is the problem with catholic tradition. All of these guys could claim they received their authority from the apostles. How can you deny it?

I know these quotes must sting. If I were catholic they would make me re-evaluate what I believe.

The telling part is that no one has denied these as legit statements or the writers of these statements or positions of catholicism regarding Mary. They are from catholic websites.

369 posted on 04/21/2015 12:19:09 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
We'd have to go through the quotes one by one, which I don't have time to do right now, though if you would want to take it up later, go ahead and send me some.

Dogmas of the Church would include Mary's ever-virginity, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, her role as pre-eminent intercessor within the Communion of Saints, her title of Theotokos (Mother of God)--- I'm missing some, but that's basically it.

Poetic titles would include most everything that's in the Litany of Loreto, which are very beautiful and which are understood metaphorically.

There are a huge number of titles relating to places of apparitions (Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Fatima) but as "Private Revelation,", they are not de fide (you don't have to believe them) and they are not the subject of dogma.

"Public revelation", which is de fide, ended with the death of the last Apostle. "Private Revelation" means any supernatural phenomena (visions, dreams, locutions, etc) happening after that. No private revelation is considered de fide --- even if this revelation came to you personally, you would not be obliged to believe it. Even "approved" apparitions (e.g. Fatima) can only confirm, and cannot contradict, that which we believe by Public Revelation.

A lot of people don't "get" that. I'm just making it clear, I hope.

Anything that suggests that Mary is equal to, or even greater than God, would be seriously objectionable. For instance, here on the Religion Forum awhile back, somebody was quoted as saying that it's better to pray to Mary than to Jesus, because her answers are surer and quicker. I think that's heretical. It's certainly not a doctrine of the Church.

The problem with your assertion is that you are mixing together dogmas, poetic metaphors, mystical experiences (private revelation) and statements that are prima facie heretical.

I can see why that happens, because too many Catholic writers are not careful to distinguish one from another. However, it is a mistake which results in wrong conclusions and widespread confusion.

409 posted on 04/21/2015 1:44:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: ealgeone

All of the “dubious” quotes provided are from people who the catholic church would consider to be doctors, saints or other reputable people in catholicism.

As I noted earlier this is the problem with catholic tradition. All of these guys could claim they received their authority from the apostles.


Much or what you say is true, but one must keep in mind that not every statement made by every reputable Catholic is in and of itself Sacred Tradition. That’s what prompted my question in post 256 regarding the statement by F.X. Durrwell about Mary as mediatrix of all graces. As for as I know, this has not been affirmed as Catholic doctrine, and, as such, is not Sacred Tradition.


412 posted on 04/21/2015 1:48:02 PM PDT by rwa265
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