Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer
But, they can hear you. See my post #65.
If their physical, earthly bodies are dead, communication with them is forbidden.
Besides, people in hell are alive too, so that argument falls flat.
Since Catholics only worship God, and not the saints, what is your point?
Because they are praying in unbelief. They essentially don't believe that God Himself will answer their prayers as HE promised that He would. IOW, they don't take Him at His word.
Besides, what's the pecking order for saints hearing prayers? Or do you give strictly divine qualities, i.e., omniscience, to the saints?
What say you, Salvation???
We're not conjuring them up, like the witch of Endor, or engaging in two-way conversation.
We're asking them to pray to God for us.
Rev. 5:8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.
So you believe that Christ's work on the cross was not completely sufficient to forgive all sins?
You didn’t read the scripture references. I am referring to the saints in the visible church, i.e. Christians.
Rather, The catholic position ignores the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura using only the Protestant Bible as the sole authority on this issue.
We do not have any injunction or example of praying to the departed believers.
The selected application of Sola Scriptura in your comment exposes its shortcoming. Not having an injunction or example in the Protestant Bible is insufficient to declare something true or false. There are no injunctions or examples of other truths you likely take for granted in the Protestant Bible either, principal among them Sola Scriptura itself, nor the Canon, with the last book in said Bible identifying all the preceding books to be included in said Bible.
It is all about FAITH. If God says it’s so, then it’s so. No matter WHAT. And without faith, it is impossible to please God. Funny, the eucharist is something that is taken purely by “faith” and catholics don’t seem to have a problem believing THAT is God-given. And yet.. prayer...I mean, really, God is changed from a wafer to His Body literally, and yet prayers are given to “saints” to offer to God?
Because they want to justify their doctrine and practice and it's the only way they can do it.
I am wise enough to not participate in this practice.
Why? I have an intercessor:
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
The Church! According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible. Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false.
Can there be more than one interpretation of the Bible? No. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth.
When it comes to interpreting Scripture, individual non-Catholic Christians claim the same infallibility as the Papacy. If one were to put two persons of the "same" non-Catholic Christian denomination (i.e., two Presybterians, two Lutherans, two Baptists, etc.) in separate rooms with a Bible and a notepad and ask them to write down their "interpretation" of the Bible, passage for passage, shouldn't they then produce the exact same interpretation? If guided by the Holy Spirit as Scripture states, the answer should be "Yes." But would that really happen? History has shown that the answer is "No." Now, in the case of Catholics, the Church which Christ founded and is with forever (Matthew 28:20) interprets the Bible, as guided by the Holy Spirit, (Mark 13:11) for the "sheep" (the faithful). The Church (not individuals) interpret Scripture. In Catholicism, Scripture is there for meditation, prayer and inspiration, not for individual interpretation to formulate doctrine or dogma.
...”It’s not an orange...it’s a tangerine...”
Your view seems to take insufficient notice of many precious promises in Scripture.
St. Paul says (Romans 2:6, 10), "God will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good work,... there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek."
This is not stealing glory from God, but rather it manifests God's freedom to give glory to those on whom His favor rests. This is a derivative glory, like the light of the moon, which is not independent, but beautifully reflects the light of the sun.
It's also a matter of inheriting glory as joint heirs with Christ:
(Romans 8:16-18): "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit
that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs,
heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ
if only we suffer with him
so that we may also be glorified with him."
"I consider that the sufferings of this present time
are as nothing
compared with the glory to be revealed for us."
(Romans 8:30) And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
Paul says the true Israelites were rightly glorified:
Romans 9:4
"They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises."
Paul himself claims this glory:
Romans 11:13
"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in my ministry."
And Paul goes on to explain that in all this, GOD is glorified:
Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen
This is what we are taking about. Look again at the quote above. This is about all believers. Amen?
I know you've got this figured out now.
Correctamundo Mama. I think another poster pointed out another issue. How does anyone know for sure that people are saints? Some might be, but it is possible others might be inhabiting a slightly warmer climate. No one knows for sure.
On the other hand Mama, all this talk about praying to this, praying to that, doing this, doing that, all doesn't matter a hill of beans. I want to know what is the correct plan of salvation. If one does not have that right, it doesn't matter what else they may have right or wrong.
I think you've been watching too many movies...
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co_11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
The anti-christ will be a counterfeit of the real Christ...You need to believe he will do every thing in his power to lead you to a counterfeit christ...He will even use 'his' ministers posing as real ministers...
And there's only one way to recognize the counterfeit christ...
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (the Bible)...
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