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Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
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To: Elsie

Because we have contemporaries of the Apostles not mentioning it at all. Doesn’t it make sense that if Jesus actually wrote something it would not only be referenced, but preserved? Should it have be destroyed, wouldn’t it have been a major catastrophe, noted by believers? Wouldn’t the possession of such a text by the Apostles reduced any kind of confusion among the Gentiles? Finally, wouldn’t the Gospel writers have made note, and referenced it?


181 posted on 03/29/2015 6:13:55 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Elsie

That is a great question!

Jesus told the Apostles to go forth and teach what He had taught them. And so they did. As these teachings were recorded and saved unto history, that is one way.

The other way is when Jesus tells the Apostles they have the power to bind and loose; when they are told to “...go to the Church”; when St. Paul visits Peter. In all of these things, authority is shown and exercised. This authority didn’t end with Peter.

Additionally, the Apostles had the authority to appoint a successor to Judas, namely Matthias.

As you see, the Church has possessed the authority handed to it by Christ Himself.


182 posted on 03/29/2015 6:20:53 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Elsie

We are speaking of two different things. It was the Jews who codified the Septuagint, 130 years before Christ. So, you can’t blame that on the Catholic Church.

Secondly, the Canon of Scripture, for Christians, was unchanged for over a 1000 years. It wasn’t until Luther and the like removed books from the Old Testament.

Does one trust the universality of the Canon, or does one trust someone who wishes to alter it?


183 posted on 03/29/2015 6:24:29 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: CynicalBear

One doesn’t need to believe in the Assumption to attain salvation. Jesus, through His Passion, Death, and Resurrection attained our salvation, once and for all. No person can earn salvation, nor merits it. It is freely given by God.

The Apostles likely wouldn’t have taught the Assumption, as many had been martyred prior to her death. Because an exact date is not recorded, we can’t know for sure, on that point.

To believe that Jesus didn’t speak to the Apostles about His teaching is just absurd.

I don’t worry, as Jesus told the Apostles the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, built upon Peter.


184 posted on 03/29/2015 6:36:11 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo
>>One doesn’t need to believe in the Assumption to attain salvation.<<

MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS Pope Pius XII

"45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith." [http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12MUNIF.HTM]

>>The Apostles likely wouldn’t have taught the Assumption, as many had been martyred prior to her death. Because an exact date is not recorded, we can’t know for sure, on that point.<<

So you don't believe what the Catholic Church puts out about all the apostles being transported to here death bed?

185 posted on 03/29/2015 7:35:49 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

If one doesn’t believe in the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, then reasonably they have fallen away from it. That doesn’t mean they have lost the gift of salvation, given once and for all by Jesus Christ. Instead, it is a teaching binding upon Catholics.

The Church doesn’t definitively teach the Apostles surrounded Mary at her earthly death. There is a vision of this by St. Anne Catherine Emmerich. Hers is a private revelation, which is defined as that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them. Further, Benedict XIV says: “It is not obligatory nor even possible to give them the assent of Catholic faith, but only of human faith, in conformity with the dictates of prudence, which presents them to us as probable and worthy of pius belief)” (De canon., III, liii, xxii, II).

While a Catholic is free to believe the Apostles surrounded Mary at her death, it is not required. In my personal opinion only, I just don’t know, and take no stand one way or the other.


186 posted on 03/29/2015 9:27:24 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: All

Sorry, everybody... can’t chat for a while. Our beloved kitty (14 yrs) is slowly dying, we’re trying “home hospice” (rather than euthanasia)—which is completely uncharted waters for my wife and for me—and I’m pretty busy and overwhelmed (and an emotional wreck). Prayers would be appreciated!


187 posted on 03/29/2015 4:02:29 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: SpirituTuo
>>That doesn’t mean they have lost the gift of salvation, given once and for all by Jesus Christ.<<

So you believe once saved always saved?

188 posted on 03/30/2015 6:32:21 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Cap'n Crunch

It is not mocking to call into question certain policies of the Church. While Church policies, rules, regulations, ritual, catechisms, liturgy, and practice are always subject to change-—look no further than Vatican II for proof of this fact-—the Holy Bible always remains constant.

Certain Catholic practices can and should be called into question. Take compulsory clerical celibacy for example. Marriage among the clergy is specifically permitted in the New Testament and married priests with families were the norm all throughout the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New. I refer you to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 which I already quoted. Compulsory clerical celibacy was introduced by the Church in the Middle Ages (First Lateran Council 1123) and for reasons that have nothing to do with anything that can be found in the Bible.

If you had your way, every Catholic would be marching in lockstep with every policy and every rule coming down from the Vatican. There would be no dissent, no tolerance for differing opinions, no questioning, no debate at all. I’m tired of being told I’m not a Catholic because I question some Church policies. And I’m not going to be silenced. Is there a rule that says you are not permitted to question Church policies? Ever? My gosh, even the Pope has raised questions about compulsory clerical celibacy and is on record stating that the policy is a discipline, not a dogma or a doctrine of the Church and is always subject to change. I totally agree!


189 posted on 03/30/2015 7:26:10 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Salvation

Yes brothers and sisters is a term which can mean brothers and sisters in faith. I know St. Paul has used it in that context and so have the priests at my church as well. That’s why you need to look at the context in which the terms are being used.

I do not rule out the possibility that Jesus’s bothers and sisters mentioned in the Bible could really be His cousins-—as some insist. But I doubt it and really it doesn’t matter in he final analysis. I am perfectly content reading the Bible as it is written-—not reading into the Bible or speculating on such matters.

Since Mary and Joseph were in fact a married couple, it is reasonable to assume they did what other married couples do. Physical intimacy between a husband and a wife is a precious gift from God, not a sin or an act of defilement. I see no reason why this gift would have been denied to Mary and Joseph. There is certainly no mention of this in the Bible. While I do concede the possibility of your theory (even though it just that-—a theory) could you EVER concede the possibility that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage?


190 posted on 03/30/2015 7:55:02 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: CynicalBear

Hardly. God’s free and unearned gift of salvation must be accepted daily. When we turn our backs on God, we are rejecting salvation in favor of our sins.

Salvation, redemption, justification, are all words that have similar general meanings, however, in religious context, can very greatly, depending upon the person using them.


191 posted on 03/30/2015 1:03:34 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

It isn’t reasonable to assume, as God was the Father of Jesus, not Joseph. Joseph was to protect both Mary and Jesus, but her body was reserved as a tabernacle for Jesus.

Joseph knew she was chosen by God, set apart. In setting her apart, she would have been physically reserved, so to speak.

Her perpetual virginity is a foil to Eve, as was her “Yes,” to God. Mary played a role in the reversal of man’s condemnation. Hers was to be both an example of obedience, but also provide humanity to Jesus. It was to suffer, as she was foretold by Simeon. It was also to nourish Jesus.

Eve on the other hand, disobeyed God. She helped to bring sin into the world. In the Garden, she suffered nothing. She most certainly didn’t nourish Adam by giving him the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She carried original sin.

Mary carried the light of the world!

Here is a good article that will do a better job than I can explaining. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin


192 posted on 03/30/2015 1:20:30 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo

Catholics have the oddest carnal view of scripture.


193 posted on 03/30/2015 1:26:53 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Sure. Unlike many non-Catholic denominations who support homosexuality, abortion, cohabitation, sex before marriage, and so-called “same sex marriage.”

Yep, definitely different from the main stream I am glad to say.


194 posted on 03/30/2015 1:40:29 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo

What you are presenting here is strictly theory and conjecture. Not an OUNCE of fact is presented here. The Bible mentions that Mary was a virgin ONLY at the time of her conception of Jesus. Period. It ends there. Since Mary and Joseph were a MARRIED COUPLE and since the Bible mentions Jesus’s brothers and sisters, it is reasonable, natural, and normal to reasonably conclude that Mary and Joseph had a happy normal close marriage which was blessed with other children. Why is this soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo difficult to believe????? To believe otherwise, you would have to conclude that Joseph was a passive wall flower and that Mary and Joseph slept in separate rooms. I don’t think that’s how Holy Matrimony works for anyone. You just offer theory not facts based on Biblical accounts which is our primary source.

God’s plan is for Holy Matrimony. His plan is for to be fruitful and multiply. He created Eve because He did not want Adam to be alone. The Church invented celibacy. That is NOT God’s plan for Mary and Joseph. That is NOT God’s plan for men and women. That is SPECIFICALLY NOT God’s plan for the clergy-—for proof of this simply read 1 Timothy 3:1-7. READ IT AGAIN. Then you tell me what that means. Holy Matrimony is God’s plan for men and women and their families. This all throughout the Bible. Only the Romans seemed to glorify virginity as goal in of itself-—remember the vestal virgins? Of course celibacy is the preferred state outside of Holy Matrimony. But marriage is God’s plan for us-—and this not to be excluded to our clergy if you read 1 Timothy 3:2.


195 posted on 03/30/2015 1:42:10 PM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: SpirituTuo
>>Yep, definitely different from the main stream I am glad to say.<<

Catholics really need to refrain from that type of hyperbole. The Catholic Church harbouring paedophiles preceded those Protestant denominations atrocities.

196 posted on 03/30/2015 2:01:04 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

Is the trinity written out word for word in the Bible? No. However, one can reason to it.

Is perpetual virginity written out in the Bible? No. However, one can reason to it.

However, to reason to it, one must understand several things. One would be the archtype of the new Eve. The second would be the role of virgins in ancient, specifically Jewish society. One would have to have a thorough understanding of Koine Greek. Finally, one would have to be able to synthesize all of that data.

As we look at the books of the Bible with our 21st century eyes, much of what seems clear really isn’t. However, when viewed from the lens of ancients, as well as the writings of scholars throughout the ages, such as St. Thomas Acquinas, St. Augustine, St. Polycarp (to name a few), we find that perpetual virginity has been an accepted teaching since the first century.

God didn’t want Adam to be alone, that’s right. However, Joseph wasn’t Adam, and Mary wasn’t Eve. Additionally, religious celibates were common, and were commended by Jesus Himself, “and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:12)

God wants us to be fruitful and multiply, in general. But that is not a commandment.

If you are struggling with these dogmas, it is worthwhile to speak with your pastor. I am sure he can walk you through these doubts.


197 posted on 03/30/2015 3:48:39 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: CynicalBear

Wow, talk about off topic. You must finally be seeing the light for you to pull that one out. What’s next, the Crusades?


198 posted on 03/30/2015 3:49:47 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo
>>Wow, talk about off topic.<<

You bring up the apostasy of some of the Protestant churches in some attempt to attach that to all no affiliated Protestans but think it's "off topic" to mention the same faults within the Catholic Church? Really?

199 posted on 03/31/2015 5:22:05 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Sexual abuse has never been a policy or doctrine of the Church. Evil people have committed those acts, and deserve all proper punishment, both here and in the afterlife.

My point is that, in general, non-Catholics approve or promote at least one or more of these non-Biblical positions: divorce, divorce and remarriage, homosexual fornication, cohabitation, and so called “same sex marriage.”

These positions, again, are held as matters of policy or doctrine. Obviously, this list can’t cover every non-Catholic entity. However, one only need look to the major non-Catholic Christian entities to find acceptance of divorce (Southern Baptist Convention: http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp) Presbyterian, Methodist (http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-nurturing-community) etc.

Since there is no single authority in each non-Catholic, Christian sect, their beliefs vary, even from church to church. Unfortunately, as listed above, these apostasies are the general rule, and not the exception.


200 posted on 03/31/2015 6:22:52 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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