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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^
| February 05, 2007
| Lee
Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.
In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for Mary full of grace since Clements entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.
Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the sword that pierces Marys soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.
The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.
The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like Mother of God and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.
Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: Campion
What you really want is to discuss the word blessed, not the verse, for the verse’s impact hinges on the word ‘blessed’ .... right ?
41
posted on
03/23/2015 3:32:41 PM PDT
by
knarf
(I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
To: Campion; knarf
>>We could start, for example, with a discussion of Luke 1:48.<<
Let's just go directly to where Christ corrected the over rating of that?
Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
42
posted on
03/23/2015 3:37:38 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: RnMomof7
Rejecting Mariology
At your PERIL!!!!!
Bernadine:
all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.
Bonaventure:
the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION. Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven, serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.
Ephem:
devotion to the divine Mother
is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.
Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.
Ambrose:
constantly pray Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.
Fulgetius:
by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.
Athanasius:
And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.
Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.
Guerric:
he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there
and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.
Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.
Antoninus:
souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.
43
posted on
03/23/2015 3:41:58 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: moonhawk
Thankfully she already found the truth.
44
posted on
03/23/2015 3:42:50 PM PDT
by
MamaB
To: RnMomof7
Calling Mary “Mother of God” is deification and blasphemy. I know nothing about you or your mother. But I do know that she preceded you. A mother always come before her children. Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. She is mother of the man Jesus. God Jesus preceded her by an eternity.
To: paladinan
Is there some suggestion that someone (or some group) is actually deifying Mary? Oh!
Heaven's to Betsy NO!!!
Far be it from THAT!!!
Let's try some easy math:
There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;
If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day;
that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.
Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)
...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!
Purty good fer someone NOT 'deified'!!
46
posted on
03/23/2015 3:44:26 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: knarf
... and every depiction I'VE ever seen of Mary has been angelically beautiful ... woman can only lead a celebate man to deal with thoughts that he joined the monastary to get away from. For SHE is just as 'celibate' as HE is!!!
47
posted on
03/23/2015 3:45:34 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Elsie
48
posted on
03/23/2015 3:46:58 PM PDT
by
knarf
(I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
To: Elsie
JAMES says otherwise;
James 1:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
49
posted on
03/23/2015 3:50:47 PM PDT
by
knarf
(I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
To: Mrs. Don-o
“You dont seem to think were going to amount to much when were glorified in heaven.”
Whatever we will be when we are glorified (the Bible doesn’t really go into many specifics about that, except for on a few issues), we certainly won’t usurp the attributes that belong to God alone.
To: paladinan; Boogieman; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...
t. John disagrees, too, especially in the sense that he calls Mary the mother of all Christians: "And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron [i.e. Jesus] [...] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. (Revelation 12:4,17) And where does John say that is Mary?
And where does Rome officially teach that is the only interpretation of that verse?
And where does this interpretation enjoy the unanimous consent of the fathers?
If #2 is not the case, then that is simply one interpretation, and which is the wrong one.
More if you can back to me.
51
posted on
03/23/2015 4:07:34 PM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: RaceBannon
“Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
It’s also worth noting the “till” in that sentence. This usage plainly states that after she bore Jesus, Joseph did “know” her. If the word “before” had been used, we couldn’t make that conclusion, but with “till”, there is no other way to read it.
To: Campion
>>""Latreia" is the worship or honor due to God alone, and is not to be given to Mary or any other created being. " is the worship or honor due to God alone, and is not to be given to Mary or any other created being.<<
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service (latreia).
Greek - latreia - Definition: service rendered to God, perhaps simply: worship.
My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession. Amen.,[http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]
O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary, to thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am an all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to thy love. To thee will I devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother thou art. From now on my only desire is to do all things with thee, through thee, and for thee. I know I can accomplish nothing by my own strength, whereas thou can do everything that is the will of thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Thou are always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the Faithful, that my family, my parish, and my country might become in truth the Kingdom where thou reignest in the glorious presence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, forever and ever. Amen. [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]
Most Glorious Virgin, you were chosen by the eternal Counsel to be the Mother of the Eternal Word made flesh. You are the treasurer of divine graces and the advocate of sinners. I who am your most unworthy servant have recourse to thee. Graciously be my guide and counselor in this valley of tears. Obtain for me, through the Precious Blood of your Divine Son, the forgiveness of my sins, the salvation of my soul, and the means necessary to obtain it. In like manner, obtain for the Holy Church victory over Her enemies and the spread of Jesus' kingdom over the whole earth. [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]
Servants of and worship to God only ey? And only dulia (doulos) to Mary and the so called "saints" right?
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant (doulos) of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Greek - doulos - properly, someone who belongs to another; a bond-slave, without any ownership rights of their own
That's what Catholics give to Mary rather than Christ.
"not ambiguous" indeed.
53
posted on
03/23/2015 4:24:08 PM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: paladinan
“Are you denying that this child is Jesus?”
No, the child is clearly symbolic of Jesus, but that does not make the woman Mary.
You see, you are dealing with a prophetic vision. The vision is composed in symbolic language, and those symbols must be properly interpreted for the meaning of the vision to be made clear. That’s true, not just for this verse, but for almost the entirety of Revelation.
Now, the interpretation you favor is flawed, and that is easily demonstrated because it is not consistent. Only parts of the vision are interpreted as symbols, while others are read literally. For example, you interpret “the woman” literally, as a human female individual who bore Jesus. Yet, the description of this woman cannot be read literally. She could not literally have 12 stars on her head, or she would be instantly incinerated, along with the rest of the planet. Similarly, if “the dragon” flung 1/3 of the literal stars in the sky into the planet, the planet would have been destroyed as well. So you are cherry picking which parts of the vision to interpret, some literally, others symbolically, and then ignoring large sections of it without bothering to interpret them at all. The results of such a method can’t be viewed with any confidence at all, because the method is entirely subjective.
If you want to make the argument that the woman is a symbol for Mary, then you are going to have to be consistent about it. Demonstrate how the symbol represents Mary instead of other candidates, and then demonstrate how you can interpret the entire vision in the context of that symbol meaning Mary without creating contradictions and inconsistencies. Such an exercise can only serve to underline the flaw in trying to identify Mary with “the woman”.
To: knarf
For SHE is just as 'celibate' as HE is!!!Oh; did I type CELIBATE?
I meant sexless, frigid, abnormal.
55
posted on
03/23/2015 4:34:18 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: moonhawk
Hi, Mom
Still praying everyday that youll return to the fullness of the truth....
As an ex-Catholic I would pray that like myself, the scales would be removed from your eyes so that you could see the truth and flee the Church of Rome.
56
posted on
03/23/2015 4:34:42 PM PDT
by
Old Yeller
(Civil rights are for civilized people.)
To: jobim
...she has demonstrated it for 2000 years. 'she' has demonstrated nothing.
The Church of ROME has had a VAST pr campaign for that amount of time.
57
posted on
03/23/2015 4:35:48 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan
"her Child was caught up to God and to His throne". Did we FORGET something???
Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
58
posted on
03/23/2015 4:38:38 PM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Elsie
59
posted on
03/23/2015 4:42:05 PM PDT
by
Old Yeller
(Civil rights are for civilized people.)
To: Elsie
You illustrate why I don't write to you hardened anti-Catholics (HAC), but only to fellow Catholics, perhaps weak in their faith or going through tough times.
No, you of the HAC mindset cannot even leave open the possibility that Jesus shares His own mother with us in a special way.
HOW GOOD OF GOD TO DO THIS FOR US, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER GOOD!
60
posted on
03/23/2015 4:43:39 PM PDT
by
jobim
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