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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: verga; CynicalBear
I'll stay with Paul's admonition to consider anyone who teaches something they didn't to be accursed.

You mean like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS? Because no one ever taught that until the 16th or 17th Century.

Wrong on all three counts. You have been told the truth repeatedly - there have been numerous RECENT threads showing the Early Church Fathers' teachings - and reject it at your own risk. Have a good day

281 posted on 03/24/2015 8:54:49 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool
This is the governing reality of it, this Mystical Body of Christ, this blessed Communion of Saints. There is a constant sharing of spiritual goods; as cells, tissues, organs, systems, limbs and senses we are all joined in the Body of Christ; at no point can we say "I have no connection with you; we don't communicate; I don't need you." And a person doesn't lose the ability to intercede, or cease to be a member of the Communion of Saints once they enter heaven!

Just consider this for a moment...when we ask other believers to pray for us or our loved ones (as many of us did for you when you were in need recently), we are really asking them to not only join us in our beseeching of our Lord, we are enjoining them to the blessings that come from answered prayer. Such participation with each other and our common needs help to build that communion of the saints (each and every believer). However, asking the dead saints to intercede for us must presuppose two things - that they are somehow cognizant of what we are each going through in this time and place and that they are able to take these requests before the throne of grace and know what is God's perfect will for each and every one of us and each and every one of our requests. We have to assume they have heard us and delivered our request - without ever having heard, seen, touched or experienced their existence.

I can see quite clearly the purpose God has for why He encourages us to pray for one another IN THIS LIFE. We are part of each other's lives and ministries and share in the joys and sorrows as we walk together in fellowship with other believers and our Lord and Savior. Our faith is strengthened and grows as we see answered prayer and our lives interchange as we grow together in faith. But...praying to the dead gives us no such encouragement or fellowship. We don't see, hear or touch those who have died - we can only HOPE they can do these things - and we have to presume they hear us and can intercede for us with no feedback from which to know we have gotten through. I don't see how that encourages us or builds our faith - especially when such prayers are NOT answered in the way we request.

Since we all agree it is Almighty God who ultimately answers our prayers - and His power IS omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent - how is invoking the dead in Christ and involving them in this process any more desirable or necessary than asking the living in Christ for the same need? Do they communicate with us and let us know our request has been heard? Do they have some special "IN" or influence before God that our brothers and sisters in Christ don't have? Is God a respecter of persons even though He says He is not?

To me, what this boils down to is the benefit of prayer and who it is that truly deserves ALL the glory and praise. It cannot be humans - dead or living - but God alone who is worthy of praise. We must obey Him and follow His commands regarding how and to whom we are to pray. We have His sacred word to guide us and Jesus' example was that we pray to our Father in heaven and not to any other. It is to Him that we entrust all our hopes, needs and desires because He knows our needs before we even ask. Having fellow believers join with us in specific prayer requests joins us in faith and love for one another in this life and we rejoice as we see our God working in our lives to conform us ever closer to the image of Christ.

282 posted on 03/24/2015 10:10:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ealgeone; DungeonMaster
Ever Read DeMontfort? He gets really worshipful on the subject of Mary.

Yes I have....catholics run from like roaches when the light is turned on.

Yet that work has an Imprimatur and nihil obstat - terms that mean:

    In the Catholic Church an imprimatur is an official declaration by a Church authority that a book or other printed work may be published; it is usually only applied for and granted to books on religious topics from a Catholic perspective.

    The grant of imprimatur is normally preceded by a favourable declaration (known as a nihil obstat) by a person who has the knowledge, orthodoxy and prudence necessary for passing a judgement about the absence from the publication of anything that would "harm correct faith or good morals". In canon law such a person is known as a censor or sometimes as a censor librorum (Latin for "censor of books"). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprimatur)

I haven't seen anything "official" that removes that designation to the work.

283 posted on 03/24/2015 10:48:04 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom; NYer
God didn't ask her permission nor was His plan for salvation subject to her approval or assent.

Mary was told how it was going to be. Nobody asked her anything.

In prot twisted logic you just turned God into a rapist. Congratulations on one of the stupidest statements I have ever read.

284 posted on 03/25/2015 1:36:02 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: metmom

Another prot whistling past the graveyard.


285 posted on 03/25/2015 1:36:54 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: boatbums
You have been told the truth completely wrong headed opinions repeatedly, by prots that don't have a clue about what they are talking about, and wouldn't recognizer the truth if it bit them on the nose.

Fixed it for you.

286 posted on 03/25/2015 1:39:57 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The burden of proof is on you, to prove that a saint in heaven supposedly is dis-membered from the Body of Christ.

Actually it's on you because you've created doctrine and practices without precedent in the Word of God. Not only is it not there but there are warnings about speaking with the dead.

287 posted on 03/25/2015 5:02:18 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: CynicalBear
"John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

That's a good one. I was thinking of OT warnings against speaking with the dead or other ceremonies for the dead. When the Lord says to do A and B and you decide to do A, B, C, D, E, and F, you are creating religion. Man has a very nasty habit of doing that as the bible says over and over.

288 posted on 03/25/2015 5:04:33 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: CynicalBear

Actually one is creating doctrine which is worse.


289 posted on 03/25/2015 5:05:06 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: verga

Nope, that is only twisted Catholic logic that it would ever occur to someone to call it that.

That kind of thought never entered my mind, but it has clearly entered the minds of numerous Catholics based on the number of times I’ve seen that referred to.

It gives quite a bit of insight to the mind that would think that way.


290 posted on 03/25/2015 5:58:29 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

I pity you and will pray that you come out of what ever has damaged you so badly.


291 posted on 03/25/2015 6:16:58 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: verga; metmom

So show where God asked her permission.


292 posted on 03/25/2015 6:38:33 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: DungeonMaster
>>I was thinking of OT warnings against speaking with the dead or other ceremonies for the dead.<<

God is rather clear throughout the Old Testament about not communicating with the dead. He was also rather clear about not incorporating pagan worship practices in the worship of Him. Catholics have ignored all of that.

293 posted on 03/25/2015 6:42:33 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RnMomof7

Protestants sometimes object to the term, “Protestant,” preferring the label, “Christian,” instead.

But their Christianity seems to consist almost entirely of protesting against Catholic doctrines and practices.

Perhaps it’s because “we’re not Catholic!” is the only doctrine all Protestants agree on, except for “Sola Scriptura.”

And to add to the irony, that tradition of Luther isn’t found in the Bible.

So I suppose if you’re anti-Catholic and adhere to Luther’s teachings, Protestantism is for you.

As for us Catholics, we will “listen to the church,” “the pillar and foundation of truth,” as Christ commanded.


294 posted on 03/25/2015 6:46:51 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: CynicalBear
So show where God asked her permission.

This question has been answered at least 100 times, and If I thought that any of you prots would: A) Actually understand it or

B) pay attention to the answer I would gladly waste my breath again.

But seeing as it has not had the desired effects previously I will save my breath for something really important.

295 posted on 03/25/2015 6:52:22 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: CynicalBear
God is rather clear throughout the Old Testament about not communicating with the dead. He was also rather clear about not incorporating pagan worship practices in the worship of Him. Catholics have ignored all of that.

The Queen of Heaven thing really stands out as "In Your face" to God.

296 posted on 03/25/2015 6:54:53 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: verga
>>But seeing as it has not had the desired effects previously I will save my breath for something really important.<<

I've noticed you "save your breath" rather consistently when it comes to scripture.

297 posted on 03/25/2015 7:08:36 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
I've noticed you "save your breath" rather consistently when it comes to scripture.

I notice prots say a lot of really stupid things when it comes to scripture.

298 posted on 03/25/2015 7:11:01 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: DungeonMaster
>>The Queen of Heaven thing really stands out as "In Your face" to God.<<

It really does doesn't it? The one that really stands out to me is the total disregard to God's commands when it comes to incorporating pagan practices. This is what God says.

Deuteronomy 12:30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God:

But here's what Catholics say.

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.[Cardinal Newman - Development of Christian Doctrine, pg 373]

299 posted on 03/25/2015 7:15:51 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: DungeonMaster; don-o
The doctrine of the Unity of the Body of Christ -- and the fact that we all need each other --- is unprecedented in previous Scripture, but it's right there in Paul.

1 Corinthians 12:21
"And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you."

Jesus also gives us a warning against considering those who have gone on before us, dead. (Mark 12:26-27) - "Have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Indeed you are badly mistaken if you think that the faithful holy ones who have gone on before us are now NOT living members of the Body of Christ and are LESS able to care for us and intercede for us than they were when they lived on this earth! It's a real head-scratcher.

It is not true that Scripture forbids us communicating with anyone who has gone on before us. Scripture does forbid particular methods of attempting to contact them, such as divination and necromancy. Deuteronomy 18:10-11:

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

Here we see Deuteronomy condemning the practice of divination, and forbids the use of any medium to contact the dead. Sorcery is condemned.

Divination and necromancy are means of attempted fortune-telling by conjuring spirits (either of those who have died, or demon spirits) by preternatural means. Catholics do not conjure up spirits as in a seance, or ask them to predict the future or use any preternatural means. Catholics ask for their help in praying to God for us. Yes, we pray to God directly, but we ask for assistance as well.

A most significant Scripture which shows that communication with specific people who have died is not sinful, is the example of our Lord Himself. Matt. 19:1-4:

" And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah."

Jesus absolutely affirms that these who have gone on before --- Moses and Elijah, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob --- are alive in Him. Do you actually think that Moses and Elijah are "dead"? Jesus says (Mark 12:24-27)

"You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God... You are very much mistaken."

It's interesting that Peter witnessed this communication with the "dead" --- with Moses and Elijah--- and went on, himself, to communicate with the dead, as we see in Acts 10, a person by the name of Tabitha who had died.

"Acts 9:37-41: In those days she [Tabitha] fell sick and died...But Peter put them all [mourners] outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, rise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive."
Tabitha was a dead person. Laid out for burial. If Peter was forbidden to‘communicate’ with the dead, he could never have spoken to the dead Tabitha. But he did speak to her; and Almighty God honored that communication by raising Tabitha. If it was a sin, God would not have let Peter be an instrument in raising Tabitha up.

Understanding this, it has been the constant practice of the Holy Church to pray with, and to ask the prayers of, those who have gone on before us.

Far be it from us, this bitter skepticism of the Church, the Body of Christ, the millions of faithful Christians through all the centuries --- a skepticism which is found abundantly on this thread, as on so many others. We are to listen to the Church:

"If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

I daresay it's not just the Catholic Church if you want to see it in a Western, jurisdictional sense, but all the Churches, founded by Apostles, from the cradle-lands of the faith on three continents (Asia, Africa and Europe), and continuously without a break for 2,000 years. I'm speaking of even those who are not in communion either with Rome or Constantinople--- the Copts and Ethiopian Church in Africa, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Nestorians, as well as the Eastern Orthodox, as well as those who are in communion with Rome, the Aramaic-speaking Melkites and Maronites, the Chaldeans and the rest. They all pray this way, with reference to Mary and the other Saints as intercessors, and they all have always prayed this way.

Frankly, my jaw drops when I realize that there are people who think that ALL these ancient Christian communities have been ALL wrong, ALL the time, from the inscriptions on the catacombs ("Ora pro nobis") until now! As if a true faith were only restored when all the customs, heritage and culture of Christendom had been split and wrecked, some 1500 years after the Ascension of Our Lord.

300 posted on 03/25/2015 7:19:21 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Timothy 3:15)
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