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To: Mrs. Don-o
The burden of proof is on you, to prove that a saint in heaven supposedly is dis-membered from the Body of Christ.

Actually it's on you because you've created doctrine and practices without precedent in the Word of God. Not only is it not there but there are warnings about speaking with the dead.

287 posted on 03/25/2015 5:02:18 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.)
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To: DungeonMaster; don-o
The doctrine of the Unity of the Body of Christ -- and the fact that we all need each other --- is unprecedented in previous Scripture, but it's right there in Paul.

1 Corinthians 12:21
"And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you."

Jesus also gives us a warning against considering those who have gone on before us, dead. (Mark 12:26-27) - "Have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Indeed you are badly mistaken if you think that the faithful holy ones who have gone on before us are now NOT living members of the Body of Christ and are LESS able to care for us and intercede for us than they were when they lived on this earth! It's a real head-scratcher.

It is not true that Scripture forbids us communicating with anyone who has gone on before us. Scripture does forbid particular methods of attempting to contact them, such as divination and necromancy. Deuteronomy 18:10-11:

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer"

Here we see Deuteronomy condemning the practice of divination, and forbids the use of any medium to contact the dead. Sorcery is condemned.

Divination and necromancy are means of attempted fortune-telling by conjuring spirits (either of those who have died, or demon spirits) by preternatural means. Catholics do not conjure up spirits as in a seance, or ask them to predict the future or use any preternatural means. Catholics ask for their help in praying to God for us. Yes, we pray to God directly, but we ask for assistance as well.

A most significant Scripture which shows that communication with specific people who have died is not sinful, is the example of our Lord Himself. Matt. 19:1-4:

" And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah."

Jesus absolutely affirms that these who have gone on before --- Moses and Elijah, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob --- are alive in Him. Do you actually think that Moses and Elijah are "dead"? Jesus says (Mark 12:24-27)

"You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God... You are very much mistaken."

It's interesting that Peter witnessed this communication with the "dead" --- with Moses and Elijah--- and went on, himself, to communicate with the dead, as we see in Acts 10, a person by the name of Tabitha who had died.

"Acts 9:37-41: In those days she [Tabitha] fell sick and died...But Peter put them all [mourners] outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, rise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. Then calling the saints and widows he presented her alive."
Tabitha was a dead person. Laid out for burial. If Peter was forbidden to‘communicate’ with the dead, he could never have spoken to the dead Tabitha. But he did speak to her; and Almighty God honored that communication by raising Tabitha. If it was a sin, God would not have let Peter be an instrument in raising Tabitha up.

Understanding this, it has been the constant practice of the Holy Church to pray with, and to ask the prayers of, those who have gone on before us.

Far be it from us, this bitter skepticism of the Church, the Body of Christ, the millions of faithful Christians through all the centuries --- a skepticism which is found abundantly on this thread, as on so many others. We are to listen to the Church:

"If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

I daresay it's not just the Catholic Church if you want to see it in a Western, jurisdictional sense, but all the Churches, founded by Apostles, from the cradle-lands of the faith on three continents (Asia, Africa and Europe), and continuously without a break for 2,000 years. I'm speaking of even those who are not in communion either with Rome or Constantinople--- the Copts and Ethiopian Church in Africa, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Nestorians, as well as the Eastern Orthodox, as well as those who are in communion with Rome, the Aramaic-speaking Melkites and Maronites, the Chaldeans and the rest. They all pray this way, with reference to Mary and the other Saints as intercessors, and they all have always prayed this way.

Frankly, my jaw drops when I realize that there are people who think that ALL these ancient Christian communities have been ALL wrong, ALL the time, from the inscriptions on the catacombs ("Ora pro nobis") until now! As if a true faith were only restored when all the customs, heritage and culture of Christendom had been split and wrecked, some 1500 years after the Ascension of Our Lord.

300 posted on 03/25/2015 7:19:21 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Timothy 3:15)
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