Posted on 03/07/2015 12:04:48 PM PST by Colofornian
Should we baptize babies? The Christian Church continues to be sharply divided over this important question. Those who answer "yes" (Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc.) claim Biblical support for their position. Those who answer "no" (Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, many "Bible" or "evangelical," or "non-denominational" churches) say the Bible is on their side. The pro-infant baptism churches assert that Christ commanded infant baptism. The opposing side asserts that nowhere is such a thing commanded. They hold that at best it is useless and at worst harmful. It is their practice to rebaptize adults who were baptized as babies.
The Lutheran Church has always taught that baptism is for everyone, including infants. We believe that Jesus wants babies to be baptized. We do so for the following reasons.
Many raise the objection: "There is not a single example of infant baptism in the New Testament, nor is there any command to do so. Therefore Christians should not baptize babies."
But Jesus has commanded infant baptism. In Matthew 28:19 He says, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit . . .." Before He ascended, the Lord of the Church commanded us to baptize "all nations," a phrase the Church has always understood to mean "everyone." Matthew 25:31-32 also uses the phrase "all nations" in this way. All nations are to be baptized, regardless of race, color, sex, age, class, or education. Jesus makes no exceptions. He doesn't say, "Baptize all nations except . . .." Everyone is to be baptized, including infants. If we say that babies are not to be included in Christ's Great Commission, then where will it stop? What other people will we exclude?
It is true that there is no example in Scripture of a baby being baptized. However, to conclude from this that babies are not to be baptized is absurd. Neither are there any specific examples of the elderly being baptized, or teenagers, or little children. Instead we read about men (Acts 2:41; 8:35) women (Acts 16:14-15), and entire households being baptized (Acts 10:24,47-48; 16:14-15; 16:30-33; 1 Co. 1:16). The authors of the New Testament documents didn't feel compelled to give examples of every age group or category being baptized. Why should they have? Certainly they understood that "all nations" is all-inclusive.
The Bible teaches that infants are born sinful and are in need of forgiveness. Scripture says nothing about an "Age of Accountability" that begins at the age of reason. Its message is that accountability begins at conception. David confesses in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." The Bible teaches original sin, that the corruption and guilt of Adam's sin is passed on to every human being at conception. Jesus affirms this teaching when He says, "Flesh gives birth to flesh" (John 3:5). Paul takes it up in Romans 5:18: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Furthermore, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he who believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). According to Jesus, ANYONE who does not believe in Him will be damned. Jesus makes no exception for infants. Babies will not be saved without faith in Jesus. Parents who think they are placing their children under God's grace by "dedicating" them are deceiving themselves. The only dedication that the New Testament knows of is the "dedication" that take place via baptism. That is why infants should be baptized. Like everyone else, they desperately need forgiveness. If infants die before they believe in Jesus, they will be eternally condemned. They, like everyone else, need to be baptized so that they can be born again. Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). We believe that baptism is God's special means of grace for children by which He causes them to be born again. To keep them from baptism is to keep them from forgiveness and to endanger them with damnation.
God's covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-14) demanded that every male child was to be circumcised when eight days old. By circumcision, the baby entered into a covenant relationship with the true God.
St. Paul teaches us that in the New Testament baptism has replaced circumcision. "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism . . ." (Col. 2:11-12).
Given this fact, it would have been natural for first century Jewish believers to baptize infants, since they were accustomed to circumcise their male children at eight days old. It is also logical that if God regarded eight day old male babies as members of His covenant people through circumcision, He will also regard newborn babies to be members of His kingdom through baptism, the "circumcision made without hands."
The most frequent objection to infant baptism is that babies cannot believe. They do not, says the objection, have the intellect necessary to repent and believe in Jesus.
If this is your opinion, Jesus disagrees with you. Luke 18 tells us that certain parents were bringing infants (Greek - brephe) to Jesus, that He might bless them. The disciples rebuked those who brought the babies. Jesus' response is well known: "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it" (Luke 18:15-17). Some have objected that it is "little children" and not infants that Jesus speaks of here. Yet the very little children that the disciples were forbidding were infants. The infants are the focus of the passage. Clearly on this occasion Jesus had babies in mind when He said what He did!
Does this passage speak of infant baptism? No, not directly. It does show that Jesus did not raise the objection that so many do today about babies not being able to believe. According to Jesus, these babies had what it took to be members of the kingdom of God, feeble intellect and all! "Do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God."
Now Jesus does not contradict Himself. The central message of His ministry (the Gospel) was that there was only way to enter God's kingdom. There was only one way to be saved. "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). Repeatedly Christ taught that faith in Him was the one way to become a member of God's kingdom (cf. John 3:16-18). Therefore, when He says about babies, "for of such is the kingdom of God," He is telling us that babies can believe (for how else could they enter the kingdom?!).
So if Jesus maintained that babies can believe (though their faith is very simple), who are we to deny it? And who are we to deny baptism to those who can believe? For those still stumbling over infant faith, remember: it is purely by God's grace that any person, adult or child, can believe. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit as much for the adult as for the child (see John 6:44; 1 Cor. 12:3; Eph. 2:1-4). When the adult believes in Christ it is only because the Holy Spirit, working through the Gospel, has worked the miracle of faith in his heart. So with the infant. If faith, then, is always a miracle, why can we not believe that God would work such miraculous faith in a baby?
Someone might ask, "If babies can believe then why do they need baptism?" Answer: it is through baptism that faith is created in the infant's heart. Baptism, far from being the empty symbolism that many imagine it to be, is the visible Gospel, a powerful means of grace. According to Scripture, baptism "washes away sin" (Acts 22:16), "saves" (1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16), causes one to "die to sin, to be buried, and raised up with Christ" (Romans 6:3-4) causes one to be "clothed with Christ" (Galatians 3:27), and to be a member of the body of Christ: "for by one Spirit, were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13). It bears repeating: baptism is a special means of God's grace by which He gives faith, forgiveness, and salvation to the infant.
Those who deny infant baptism have a problem. They must explain why the fathers of the Church's first centuries speak of infant baptism as a universal custom. The Fathers is what we now call Pastors who led the Church after the death of the apostles. When we examine the writings of Irenaeus (d. 202), Tertullian (d. 240), Origen (d. 254), Cyprian (d. 258), and Augustine (d. 430), we see that they all spoke of infant baptism as accepted custom (though Tertullian disagreed with it).
Irenaeus remarks, "For He came to save all through means of Himself all, I say, who through Him are born again to God, infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men" (Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch. 22.4).
In his commentary on Romans, Origin writes, "The Church has received from the apostles the custom of administering baptism even to infants. For those who have been entrusted with the secrets of divine mysteries, knew very well that all are tainted with the stain of original sin, which must be washed off by water and spirit" (Romans Commentary, 5.9).
Cyprian writes, "In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man... Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision... we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus).
And in his Enchiridion, Augustine declares, "For from the infant newly born to the old man bent with age, as there is none shut out from baptism, so there is none who in baptism does not die to sin" (Enchiridion; ch. 43).
For completeness sake, I have listed five reasons why Christians should baptize infants. The first reason should have been enough. Jesus has commanded His Church to "make disciples of all nations baptizing them . . .." Christ made no exceptions. Infants are part of all nations, as are every other age group. We do not have to prove this. The burden of proof is on those who deny that infants are to be included in "all nations." To deny the blessing of infant baptism because you can't find the words "infant baptism" in the Bible makes as much sense as rejecting the teaching of the Trinity because you can't find the words "Trinity" or "triune" in the Bible.
As to babies not being of the age of reason and therefore not able to believe, I have shown that Christ disagrees. So in a sense, the teaching of infant baptism reveals who your Lord is. Lord Jesus Christ has commanded us to baptize all nations, has declared that everyone who dies without faith is damned, and has taught us that infants can believe by God's grace working through baptism. Lord Reason says, "I don't understand how a baby can believe, therefore I reject infant baptism. It makes more sense to me to do it my way." Which Lord will you obey? Will you obey Christ and baptize "all nations," including infants, even though you don't understand it? Or will you obey Reason and reject infant baptism because you don't understand how babies can believe? Which Lord will you obey?
Pastor Richard Bucher, Th.D
Are you trying to lesson the meaning of Holy? It goes a little deeper then what you seem to be trying to imply.
Greek - ἅγιά - hagios - 40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world." [http://biblehub.com/greek/40.htm]
Also used here;
Acts 7:33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.
And here:
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
And here:
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Try to diminish the significance if you want but I will not.
That’s the most correct answer and the one that’s consistent with both the Old and New Testaments. Well done.
Exactly. Be baptized -- which the NT describes as a purely passive act that happens to us. (I can perhaps go into this in more detail on another post)
Note that the Scriptures don't say, "Repent and make 'a decision for Christ,' now do they?
Note that the Scriptures don't say "Go and make disciples of all nations" by having them make "decisions for Christ" -- now do they>
Instead what does Jesus say?
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28)
The Greek there for "nations" is panta ta ethne -- "ethne" is where we get the word "ethnic" from..So Jesus isn't so much talking about all political-boundary nations -- but all ethnic groups. (And last time I looked, kids under age 8 were part of "all ethnic groups).
Or do you claim that Jesus' Great Commission there in Matthew 28:18-20 doesn't apply to kids under 8 -- or kids under a certain age group?
As for repentance...
| Focus of passage | Jesus in Luke | Jesus in Mark | Jesus in Matthew |
| Adults in fact need to be like little children | "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will NEVER enter it.” (Luke 18:17) | Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will NEVER enter it.” (Mark 10:15) | “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 18:3) |
| Context of passage | People were bringing BABIES to Jesus (Luke 18:15) | People were bringing little children to Jesus (Mark 10:13) | Jesus called a little child to Him (Matt. 18:2) |
| What was the reaction of the disciples? | The disciples rebuked the people for bringing children to Jesus (Luke 18:15) | The disciples rebuked the people for bringing children to Jesus (Mark 10:13) | In the next chapter of Matthew 19 -- people were bringing little children to Jesus -- and the disciples rebuked them for doing that (v. 13) |
| How did Jesus respond to the disciples' rebuke toward the people? | But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these". (Luke 18:16) | When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." (Mark 10:14) | Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matt. 19:14) |
| Passage cite | Verse says | My comment |
| Romans 2:4 | Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? | If you were lost in the dark...and a person guided you home via his light...are you going to credit you stumbling home to yourself? |
| Acts 5:31 | God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might GIVE repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. | [Uh, hint: When you GIVE something of tremendous value to someone else, that's a gift of tremendous generosity...Or, would somebody think: God "owes" us to forgive us?] |
| Acts 11:18 | When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has GRANTED even the Gentiles repentance unto life." | Bottom-line: If God didn't grant repentance to any of us of any age; none of us would have repented!!! (He could leave us hard-hearted & not have the Holy Ghost convict us of anything!) |
| Isaiah 30:15 | This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: 'In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.' | You see, we need to be careful of not making repentance into some "bootstrap" work we of our own power accomplish, thereby turning it into another man-glorifying work. Repentance, Isaiah says, is in a similar category to rest...quietness...trust in another (not in ourselves). But guess what? Too many "religious" people are like the Israelites of old: we "would have none of it." |
Were that to be the case, I could claim, "On such & such a day, I decided to go to heaven."
Who gets/steals the glory for that? (I would be)
Those who embrace decisional regeneration:
1. Tend to rely upon one Old Testament passage (Joshua 24:15) & one New Testament passage (Rev. 3:20). They (often) fail to disclose that Rev. 3:20 was written to a church (of Laodicea) -- with Christians already in their midst. Joshua 24:15 is likewise aimed at God's people.
2. Wind up conveying that those outside of Christ are somehow on "neutral" ground and have this inherent spiritual capacity to "decide". The Bible doesn't lay out any third neutral ground:
We are either...
...in the Kingdom of Light, or one of darkness.
...alive in Christ; or spiritually dead.
...free in Christ; or spiritually enslaved.
Spiritually enslaved people (John 8:34; Romans 6:6-20)...
...who are spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1-5; Luke 9:60)...
...can't simply wield some magical "decision" to regenerate themselves, any more than Lazarus could have "decided" to wake up from the dead & walk out of his grave (John 11).
So, in other words, even Faith isn't the cause of salvation; it is simply THE connector. It's the bridge 100% constructed by Another -- and we don't even move across that bridge on our own power.
Faith responsively participates WITH salvation.
Faith is not something we DO in order to receive God's mercy; it's the RESULT of God's mercy toward us. (It's the opposite of a "required law")
And faith is a 100% gift RECEIVED (Eph. 2:8-9).
Our role as adopted sons is "RECEIVED" (John 1:12); Jesus talked about RECEIVING His Kingdom like a little child (Luke 18:17; Mark 10:15; Matthew 18:3)
| The Father | The Son | The Holy Spirit |
| “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (Jesus, John 6:44) | You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. (Jesus, John 15:16) | "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. (Apostle Paul, 1 Cor. 12:3) |
| [Consider a personal New Testament study upon the word "elect": Every political election -- the people are doing the "choosing"...they are not merely "forecasting" who will win] | 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John, referencing authority given by Jesus to be born of God 1:12-13) | Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5) [My note: NONE of us checked off on our first birth; Jesus four times compares the second birth of the Spirit to the first one in John 3:3-7] |
The New Testament directs us to baptize entire households:
We have references to SIX households that were the target of ministry in the NT alone. In five of these, we see they baptized the entire household:
* 1 Cor. 1:16
* Acts 11:14
* Acts 16:15
* Acts 16:25-34
* Acts 18:8
(Of course, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 would have had no "household" to baptize)
In Judaism and among Greek-speaking Jews, you had what was called the Oikos formula (Oikos = household in Greek).
What makes the Acts' cases interesting is...
1. These were all SUDDEN baptisms. Usually in Western society, we're used to each family member coming along at their own speed -- "in God's timing" -- and the emphasis is not having one family member conform just because somebody else is...or the emphasis is on letting children "make up their OWN minds." (Such is NOT the case in Acts)
2. Acts 16 is particularly of interest because the directive "to believe" by the disciples was made ONLY to the jailer (v. 31)...
...and the ONLY ONE we are told in the account that responded with such belief was again the jailer (v. 34).
Yet...
...who was baptized? (His entire household, v. 33).
...Who was "saved" according to the disciples' promise? (The entire household, v. 31).
...Who rejoiced because of the baptismal salvation? (The entire household, v. 34)
I'm frankly not sure that with FIVE -- count 'em FIVE -- Scriptural accounts of entire-household baptisms -- most if not all done at the same time...
...exactly why people are disobedient by rebelling versus following suit.
With baseball starting up, the Scriptural score is...
...Whole-household baptisms 5...
...Age-of-accountability based baptisms 0...
Ya know, Jesus already indicated that the Gospel alone was going to wind up dividing families:
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ (Jesus, Matthew 10)
I'm not exactly sure why we have entire denominations catering to greater family division by unBiblical age-segmentation baptisms based upon an unBiblical "age-of-accountability" notions.
Why not foster greater family spiritual unity by baptizing entire households?
Why divide the family up unnecessarily when the New Testament doesn't?
And it goes deeper than this (covered this in post #145).
The promise the disciples made in v. 31 was that the entire household would be saved. What's very interesting is that the only recorded appeal to believe is to the jailer himself -- NOT the household (v. 31).
And to confirm this, the ONLY recorded response of belief is the jailer's belief response -- v. 34. NOTHING is mentioned about the rest of his household believing.
Yet the entire household was baptized (v. 33). The entire household rejoiced (v. 34).
I've seen plenty of selfish behavior of 7 & under...
I've seen fights...
Etc.
And your "change the environment" message is not a complete cure-all.
See post #145
#1...Reason is not Lord of my house; our Lord is.
#2...There is NO automated "age of reason" for kids. That is an arbitrary standard that is unBiblical and reason will not only vary from kid to kid, but upon which subject and which emotion is being entertained at the given moment.
Kids can be "reasonable" about plenty and "unreasonable" about plenty...and I've seen enough pre-teen, teen-age, and adult UNreasonable "drama" in certain situations to make me question that so-called threshold you entertain.
#3...Your line of thinking militates verses what I expounded in the first chart in Post #143 -- about who Jesus says belongs the Kingdom of heaven...and it's even younger than "little children" in Luke 18...Luke specifically cites "infants" there as the full context for all that follows.
#4...Please read Post #145...because the Biblical score is...
...Entire household baptisms 5...
...Age of reason baptisms 0...
(I was called on my mistake & I corrected my post)
Is God's grace age-based?
”Moreover, belief in divine Scripture declares to us that among all—whether infants or those who are older—there is the same equality of the divine gift...Otherwise, it would seem that the very grace which is given to the baptized is given either more, or less, depending on the age of the receivers. However, the Holy Spirit is not given with measure...For although the infant is still fresh from its birth, yet it is not such that anyone should shudder at kissing it in giving grace and in making peace.” (Cyprian), 250 AD 5.354
Is the Great Commission of Matthew 28 age-segmented?
”He came to save ALL persons by means of Himself—ALL, I say, who through Him are born again to God—infants, children, boys, youth, and old men.” (Irenaeus), 180 AD, 1.391
I am sorry to inform you that there's apparently plenty of Scripture that you either pay no mind to or militate against:
| What does the Old Testament reveal? | What does the New Testament reveal? | What early church father comments reveal about early church doctrine of sin nature – especially in regard to infant baptism? |
| Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5) | 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL people, because all sinned— … 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) | ”The prophets...tell us that a sacrifice for sin was offered even for new-born infants, as not being free from sin. They say, 'I was shaped in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' Also, 'They are estranged from the womb.' Which is followed by the singular expression,'They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.'” (Origen), 248 AD, 4.631 |
| Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Ecc. 7:20) | ... for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) | ”They ask that their reproach may be taken away—that is, that they might be cleansed from their sins. For the reproach is the original sin that is taken away in baptism. They then begin to be called Christians.” (Victorinus), 280 AD, 7.346 ; ”In baptism, the coarse garment of your birth is washed.” (Commodianus), 240 AD, 4.212 |
| Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. (Ps. 58:3) | ... For the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) [My note: Notice Paul says “sin” singular … when you read Romans 6 + John 8:34, we see that “sin” is treated as a power (vs. “sins” plural – individual acts of wrongdoing)...If 7 yo kids & younger can die – yet if they are 100% innocent – then doesn't that make gods like the Mormon gods unjust if he says they can become subject to a death they don't choose? And yes, a perfect Jesus died, but he CHOSE that route for us. Young kids who die don't choose that route] | ”Nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace. How much more should we shrink from hindering an infant. For he, being lately born, has not sinned – other than, in being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. For this reason, he more easily approaches the reception of the forgiveness of sins. For to him are remitted—not his own sins—but the sins of another. Therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council that no one should be hindered by us from baptism and from the grace of God.” (Cyprian), 250 AD, 5.354 |
| Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4) | -- | ”No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day.” [Job 14:4, 5, IXX].” (Clement of Alexandria), 195 AD 2.428 |
Sorry, are you claiming that ALL of the church fathers in the right column of the chart below --
--and the apostle Paul --
-- and Solomon and David, etc.
-- all in the chart below --
...assume "the position of the pedophile" and teach "the doctrine of Molech"???
Really???
I am sorry to inform you that there's apparently plenty of Scripture that you either pay no mind to or militate against:
| What does the Old Testament reveal? | What does the New Testament reveal? | What early church father comments reveal about early church doctrine of sin nature – especially in regard to infant baptism? |
| Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Ps. 51:5) | 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL people, because all sinned— … 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) | ”The prophets...tell us that a sacrifice for sin was offered even for new-born infants, as not being free from sin. They say, 'I was shaped in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' Also, 'They are estranged from the womb.' Which is followed by the singular expression,'They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.'” (Origen), 248 AD, 4.631 |
| Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. (Ecc. 7:20) | ... for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) | ”They ask that their reproach may be taken away—that is, that they might be cleansed from their sins. For the reproach is the original sin that is taken away in baptism. They then begin to be called Christians.” (Victorinus), 280 AD, 7.346 ; ”In baptism, the coarse garment of your birth is washed.” (Commodianus), 240 AD, 4.212 |
| Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. (Ps. 58:3) | ... For the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) [My note: Notice Paul says “sin” singular … when you read Romans 6 + John 8:34, we see that “sin” is treated as a power (vs. “sins” plural – individual acts of wrongdoing)...If 7 yo kids & younger can die – yet if they are 100% innocent – then doesn't that make gods like the Mormon gods unjust if he says they can become subject to a death they don't choose? And yes, a perfect Jesus died, but he CHOSE that route for us. Young kids who die don't choose that route] | ”Nobody is hindered from baptism and from grace. How much more should we shrink from hindering an infant. For he, being lately born, has not sinned – other than, in being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth. For this reason, he more easily approaches the reception of the forgiveness of sins. For to him are remitted—not his own sins—but the sins of another. Therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council that no one should be hindered by us from baptism and from the grace of God.” (Cyprian), 250 AD, 5.354 |
| Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4) | -- | ”No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day.” [Job 14:4, 5, IXX].” (Clement of Alexandria), 195 AD 2.428 |
No, I am claiming that you are misinterpreting and ending up in the position of the pedophile with this bad doctrine. If children are born sinful, then it follows that they can sin. If they can sin, then they are as guilty as the pedophile and perhaps they do desire a sexual relationship with adults the pedophiles claim.
I reject that as ungodly and wholly inconsistent with holy scripture. You cannot parse the Bible and generate your own doctrine. You must take it as a whole. All you’ve done is prove the need for continuing revelation with your weak appeals to authority. Bible-whispering is anti-Christ.
It’s not your Bible to parse. Take it all or leave it all. One cannot stake out a position and then snip verses out of the Bible. The appeal to authority is undermined by this. Plus, the Jews themselves had 13 as the age of accountability.
That is true, often you can change the environment and the child won’t change because there is a physical or mental defect beyond the environment. But, nearly always, behavior is driven by environment. The Bible condemns the parent who doesn’t raise their child up to the Lord. Most often a child’s behavior reflects the parent’s behavior and response. It’s mostly environmental.
In the same way that bad doctrine leads to bad outcomes. You might like this book on parenting:
It’s extremely effective when used. It’s also the cheapest $18 you ever spent, if you want to have a family more heavenly than you can imagine. It works with spouses, friends and strangers, too.
When you label the messenger as the "parser" I suppose it's a LOT easier then of not having to deal with the "text" -- that which is being expounded...
You can take all of Romans 3, ALL of Romans 5, ALL of Romans 6...and read it yourself...
Nobody forces you to be a "parsed out" receiver of anything Biblical...it's there as an ENTIRE book...
So digest it as a whole...
...Revise and rewrite those Biblical chapters as a whole...
...do what you want as a whole...
...but deal with the text...
...then you'll be at complete liberty to halt whining about their specifics...
Of course, the implications of your position is to truncate the Great Commission...
For now it's not to "make disciples of all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name -- not names like the Mormons make it out to be -- of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- and teaching them to observe all that Christ commands...
...NoW the truncated Mormon version is to leave off the young kids!
"Go make disciples of ALL ethnic groups except the kids! Because they're already 'perfect'"
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ALL: What's even stranger for the Mormon doctrine that kids are "perfect" for the first 7 years & 364 days of their lives!
It's been a LONG time since I posted the "Top Ten" doublespeak list on Mormonism...and I won't repost it now. But here was #10 from that list:
10. "Little kids are perfect until age 8. That's why we baptize them at that age...for the remission of sins...that, uh, the sins they, uh, don't have."
"And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old... (Joseph Smith, Doctrine & Covenants 68:27)
Either you -- 1010rd -- or you Stormprepper -- wish to explain to the world this curious Mormon doctrine of Mormon baptism for the remission of sins...in light of the Mormon doctrine of childhood perfection?
What sins are there to "remit" if they are indeed perfect, as the Book of Mormon claims:
...little children are whole, for they are NOT CAPABLE OF COMMITTING SIN..." (Moroni 8:8).
In fact, Joseph Smith has the character Moroni claim just three verses later that "their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins." (Moroni 8:11)
IF indeed the lone purposes of Mormon baptism is (a) repentance; and (b) the remission of sins...what indeed do perfect Mormon children even need to be baptized for?
What happens at age 8 that isn't there at age 7 and 364 days? What are Mormons doing in their "environments" over a single day causing their children to have this cancer-like sin that suddenly needs remission?
(It seems like 1010 that if you are baptizing 8 yo suddenly in need of "sin remission" after NOT being capable of sin, that you are IMPUTING sin to them ... and collectively so...across the board to just about EVERY Mormon 8 yo...curious)
By your own standards, is that not assuming a "pedophile" position in blaming all these Mormon 8 yo?
It seems the point of my post has escaped you entirely.
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