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To: LearsFool

St Paul mentions that by GRACE you are saved in almost all his letters.
James mentions you are justified by WORKS once.. Everyone throws out all Paul’s life preservers and grasps at James’ strawy epistle.

For the same reason that Paul no where says you are saved by being baptized in water. Baptism is into Christ on on the Cross.

If St Paul had been a Campbellite here is how he would write this. No self respecting CofC preacher would let it pass.

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved ( when you are baptized by immersion in water).

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation ( And when you go down into the water, baptism washes away the sins).

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (and is baptized for remission of sins) shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him (and are baptized).

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord and is baptized in water) shall be saved.

But notice Paul did not say anything about it anywhere.
Salvation first, then baptism (following the Lord) later.


93 posted on 03/05/2015 12:53:43 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Ha! But there's no need to rewrite Romans 10, when the Spirit through Paul's pen gave us Romans 6.

You see, Paul wasn't writing to people who hadn't heard the gospel, but to those "called to be saints". They had heard the gospel already, and had become disciples of Christ.

Was this the same gospel that had been preached from the start in Acts 2, or a different one?

There are many today who preach a different gospel. They are to be accursed:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema." - Gal. 1:8-9
94 posted on 03/05/2015 1:05:08 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
What would you think if you read this one a cake mix box?

Add Mom's Best cake mix to mixing bowl. Add 2 eggs and 1/2 cup water. Stir, and pour into baking pan. Bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes.

Mom's Best are the finest cake mixes around, if you bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes.

The finest cooks always trust Mom's Best, and bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes.

If you're enjoying a Mom's Best cake prepared according to directions, you know that no other cake mix compares. Be sure you bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes.

Having company over for dinner? Be sure to bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes.

96 posted on 03/05/2015 1:19:52 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Nobody puts that on a cake mix box. It’s in the instructions, and that’s sufficient.

But consider this conversation:

“This cake isn’t very good.”

“What do you mean? It’s from a Mom’s Best cake mix!”

“Well it’s just kinda gooey and gummy.”

“I don’t understand what went wrong. I followed the instructions on the box.”

“So you put the mix in a bowl, and added 2 eggs and 1/2 cup water?”

“Yes, did that.”

“And stirred it? Then poured it into a baking pan?”

“Yes, did that.”

“And then baked it at 350 degrees for 30 minutes?”

“Doh! Somebody told me that part wasn’t necessary since it was only in the directions and wasn’t written all over the box!”


97 posted on 03/05/2015 1:40:28 PM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

**St Paul mentions that by GRACE you are saved in almost all his letters.**

Do you even read the first few verses of those letters, where Paul is greeting those people? Or do you just go to the verses that suit your theology, and that overule the Lord’s commissions (Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; Luke 24:47; and John 20:23), and his messenger, Peter (Acts 2:38)?

I can have an 8 yr old read those intros, and that child will see that they were written to ‘saints, and ‘brethern’, and the ‘faithful’, and ‘churches’.

That means he is addressing folks that already know how to be born again. He doesn’t have to spell it out to them all over again. There are times he alludes to it:

Romans 6:3; “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
4. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:....” (That’s certainly not Spirit baptism, because the Spirit is life.) “..that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
5 “For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection.”

Being born again requires obedience, which is NOT ‘our OWN works’. As Paul said to the saints in Rome:

16 “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 17 Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

The Red Sea: the passover lamb saved the first born, but the Red Sea saved them all;...”our fathers were under the cloud, and ALL pased through the sea; and were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” 1Cor. 10:1,2 (They were born of the water and of the Spirit, in type and shadow) I’m not sure why the Red Sea was ever named the RED Sea, but I don’t believe it was coincidence.

Col. 2:12 is quite similar: “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the operation of God, who raised him from the dead.”

Buried,...risen,.....That sure is clear to me: Paul is referring to water baptism, and Spirit baptism, as separate events, and that both are required.

Heb. 6:1-3 is written to those born again: “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection: not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. And this we will do if God permit.”
(Notice the ‘doctine of baptisms’ is plural?)

**Romans 10:....But notice Paul did not say anything about it anywhere.**

Remember, he was addressing born again folk, lamenting the unbelieving Jews. He was letting them know that God could save anyone. He says, as long as they hear the gospel from a preacher sent from God, there is hope. To see what the preachers sent from God preached to the unbelievers, one must go to Acts.

It is by the grace of God that he ALLOWS you to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. You have been told. Maybe you love brother, sister, father, mother, family tradition, or your church tradition, more than you love Him. Rightly divide the Word. Block out your emotions and confirm the Lord’s commissions are being observed in Acts 2:38. It takes faith the believe and obey it.


142 posted on 03/05/2015 7:06:01 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; LearsFool; All
Romans 10...But notice Paul did not say anything about it anywhere. Salvation first, then baptism (following the Lord) later.

Are you serious?

Ya know, all of the Biblical chapters & verses came WELL after these letters were written.

We like to sometimes think that what Paul wrote in Romans 10 is somehow "light-years" distant from what he wrote in Romans 6...but such wasn't the case. Same letter...x # of sentences before what we read in Romans 10.

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him THROUGH BAPTISM into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Paul, Romans 6)

Ya wanna tell us how something God does here...
...(a) baptizing us into Christ Jesus...
...(b) being buried with Him THROUGH baptism into death...
...(c) resulting in further identification with Christ thru His resurrection & our accompanying new life...
...can be so readily ignored and marginalized?

What? Is Paul just "into" flowery meaningless language that doesn't have any real linkage to real spiritual life?

165 posted on 03/05/2015 10:23:24 PM PST by Colofornian
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