Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"
Thoughts of Francis Turretine ^ | July 03, 2010 | Turretinfan

Posted on 02/22/2015 5:12:26 AM PST by RnMomof7

Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"

In a recent (2009) response to Dr. White, Robert Sungenis made some interesting admissions regarding the absence of knowledge of what Purgatory is in Roman Catholic theology:
Since the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory, and since the Church declined to make any official statements on its nature, it is only natural that people of different eras are going to come to different views of what precisely constitutes the Purgatorial experience.

... we have not settled on the nature of Purgatory ...

... the nature of Purgatory is an admitted area of unsettled knowledge in the Catholic Church ...

After we have already admitted that being in the 15% area of unsettled doctrine
the nature of Purgatory continues to be debated among “modern Roman Catholic advocates,” the truth is, it really doesn’t matter a whole lot. The fact is, Purgatory exists. It can be shown from Scripture, the Patristics, the medievals, and the Magisterium. Whether it is “days” or some other measurement is not really a make-or-break issue.
(Source: Sungenis' article oddly titled: James White, Alive but Still Struggling)

The underlying problem here, though, is that Sungenis has not fully identified the reason for the lack of common assent regarding the nature of Purgatory. While it is true that God has not revealed the nature of "Purgatory," the primary reason for the lack of common assent regarding the nature of Purgatory is that (a) Purgatory is a fiction and (b) Purgatory is a relatively new fiction. The medieval era in the West is where we really see the development of a view of Purgatory. There is no mention of any "Purgatory" in the fathers.

As Jacques Le Goff explains, "Until the end of the twelfth century the noun purgatorium did not exist: the Purgatory had not yet been born." (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth of Purgatory, p. 3 - see also, Appendix II: "Purgatorium," the History of a Word)(emphasize is Le Goff's) There may well have been vague concepts of purgation either upon death or at the day of judgment (or the like) but the idea of a third state or place given the name "Purgatory" was a long time in development from some vague comments about purging by Augustine in the 5th century (I'll leave the debate over those comments for another post).

But there is an interesting background against which Sungenis is making his claim. Benedict XV praised Dante Alighieri's work (The Divine Comedy: Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradisio) this way:
It is thus that, according to the Divine Revelation, in this poem shines out the majesty of God One and Three, the Redemption of the human race operated by the Word of God made Man, the supreme loving-kindness and charity of Mary, Virgin and Mother, Queen of Heaven, and lastly the glory on high of Angels, Saints and men; then the terrible contrast to this, the pains of the impious in Hell; then the middle world, so to speak, between Heaven and Hell, Purgatory, the Ladder of souls destined after expiation to supreme beatitude. It is indeed marvellous how he was able to weave into all three poems these three dogmas with truly wrought design.
- Benedict XV, In Praeclara Summorum, Section 4, 30 April 1921

Dante Alighieri lived from about 1265 to 1321. His work on the subject of the afterlife, including Purgatory, is one whose influence in the late medieval period, particularly in Italy, is hard to overstate. He is referred to both as the Supreme Poet of Italy and the Father of the Italian language.

His work makes clear that his view of Purgatory is that it is a place like Heaven or Hell in that it is a place having space and time. It is, for Dante, a Mountain that is to be climbed. We also see a similar view of Purgatory as a definite place in the works of Thomas Aquinas:
Article 2. Whether it is the same place where souls are cleansed, and the damned punished?

Objection 1. It would seem that it is not the same place where souls are cleansed and the damned punished. For the punishment of the damned is eternal, according to Matthew 25:46, "These shall go into everlasting punishment [Vulgate: 'fire']." But the fire of Purgatory is temporary, as the Master says (Sent. iv, D, 21). Therefore the former and the latter are not punished together in the same place: and consequently these places must needs be distinct.

Objection 2. The punishment of hell is called by various names, as in Psalm 10:7, "Fire and brimstone, and storms of winds," etc., whereas the punishment of Purgatory is called by one name only, namely fire. Therefore they are not punished with the same fire and in the same place.

Objection 3. Further, Hugh of St. Victor says (De Sacram. ii, 16): "It is probable that they are punished in the very places where they sinned." And Gregory relates (Dial. iv, 40) that Germanus, Bishop of Capua, found Paschasius being cleansed in the baths. Therefore they are not cleansed in the same place as hell, but in this world.

On the contrary, Gregory says [The quotation is from St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)]: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.

Further, the holy fathers; before the coming of Christ, were in a more worthy place than that wherein souls are now cleansed after death, since there was no pain of sense there. Yet that place was joined to hell, or the same as hell: otherwise Christ when descending into Limbo would not be said to have descended into hell. Therefore Purgatory is either close to, or the same place as, hell.

I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin.

Reply to Objection 1. The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect.

Reply to Objection 2. The punishment of hell is for the purpose of affliction, wherefore it is called by the names of things that are wont to afflict us here. But the chief purpose of the punishment of Purgatory is to cleanse us from the remains of sin; and consequently the pain of fire only is ascribed to Purgatory, because fire cleanses and consumes.

Reply to Objection 3. This argument considers the point of special dispensation and not that of the common law.
- Thomas Aquinas (as completed by Reginald of Piperno), Summa Theologica, Supplement to the Third Part, Appendix 2, Article 2 (Although Reginald is given credit for adding this material to the Summa Theologica, the material is essentially taken word for word from Thomas Aquinas' Commentary on [Peter Lombard's] Sentences, Book IV, Distinction 21, Article 1, with some omissions of the materials found there, but no obvious insertions that affect the meaning)

Notice that in this discussion, Thomas Aquinas (lived about 1225 - 1274) suggests that Purgatory occupies two places: one place is in or below Hell - the other is at various specific times in other places for particular purposes.

Notice as well that Thomas Aquinas concedes that Scripture does not tell us about the "situation" (that is, the place where it is sited - it's location) of Purgatory. Thus, he's not willing to be dogmatic about it. However, Thomas Aquinas does believe that there were "revelations made to many" about Purgatory.

The bottom line is that, as Le Goff said, the Purgatory is something born in the 12th century. It is something that took shape as a definite place in the writings of folks like Dante and Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. Yet it is something that one today hears promoted as simply a state, not a place, from sources like EWTN (example) based on comments such as the following from John Paul II:
Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.
- John Paul II, General Audience, 4 August 1999, Section 5

So, while we certainly agree with Mr. Sungenis that Rome has not received divine revelation about the nature of Purgatory, we would simply take that a step further and note that the current teachings one gets from Rome (whether from the pope or anyone else) lack the authority of divine revelation generally. Scripture does not speak of a Purgatory, and there is no good reason for accepting the changing traditions of Rome on this subject. Waving ones hands and saying that the things that are not known are not important doesn't really address the issue behind the fact that Roman Catholics cannot even tell us with certainty whether Thomas Aquinas or John Paul II is right, when it comes to Purgatory.

-TurretinFan

N.B. As an aside, Mr. Sungenis makes reference to the idea that there is a "15% area of unsettled doctrine" in his religion. He made this number up out of thin air. He has no way of knowing how much additional doctrine his church will define this century or the next, and consequently he has no way of knowing whether the real number is 15% or 0.000001%. All he can really say is that his church makes more dogmatic statements than most other churches do.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: doctrine; hell; judgement
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-88 next last
To: Campion
Praying for the dead implies a state or condition in which they can be helped by your prayers, obviously.
Just as Mt 12:32 ("... whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come") implies the possibility of forgivenes in the age to come.
41 posted on 02/22/2015 11:49:01 AM PST by eastsider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
The fact is, Purgatory exists. It can be shown from Scripture, the Patristics, the medievals, and the Magisterium.

No, it cannot be shown from Scripture.

Jesus makes absolutely no mention of anything like purgatory in any of His teachings.

42 posted on 02/22/2015 11:52:45 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS

Sure it denies the efficacy of the cross.

If there is sin left to be purged form the individual that Christ’s blood didn’t take care of, His blood didn’t finish the job, it wasn’t enough.

Either Jesus’ blood cleanses us or it doesn’t. God doesn’t do half a job.


43 posted on 02/22/2015 11:54:22 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: eastsider

Heb 3:15
As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

2 Corinthians 6:2 ESV
For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

One has until the first physical death to decide who one will follow. Then, time’s up.


44 posted on 02/22/2015 11:55:33 AM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"

Since per Hebrews 10:10 a "purgatory" is not necessary, that's not exactly surprising news.

45 posted on 02/22/2015 11:57:33 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (You're either in or in the way.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; ...

So purgatory is now up to the individual private interpretation of just anyone, eh?

Fancy that.

And then they tell us we’re wrong about whatever we say about purgatory and they can’t even decide what’s CORRECT about its teachings.


46 posted on 02/22/2015 11:58:47 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: metmom

To me ???


47 posted on 02/22/2015 12:02:43 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero

My point is that “purgatory” is a made-up RCC doctrine/teaching/word and not an idea from Jesus or His apostles or the Holy Bible or anywhere other than from Catholic writers. It is not Scriptural or in agreement with Scripture.


I have no disagreement with you on that, I was just pointing out a few scriptures that plainly show where Jesus did go and preach to the spirits in prison and the other scriptures which show where these he preached to did go with him.

The fact that Jesus did go and preach to the spirits in prison is most likely where the Catholics get the idea of purgatory which I believe they are widely missing the point.

At the same time I also believe Protestants are missing a lot by not reading these scriptures.

If it is a “state of sleep”, they are still effectively dead. Do you mean Hades?>>>>>>>>>

I guess hades being a place of the dead could be as good a word as any, their bodies were dead but their spirits were just asleep that is why it says in Hosea 6, he will revive us (awaken us) and on the third day he will raise us up.

That is why Paul says in 1 cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul was not saying we would not die but that we would not sleep in death for hundreds of years as the ones who Jesus revived.


48 posted on 02/22/2015 12:22:28 PM PST by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
How does an angel become a saint??

I answered this a couple of weeks ago...

"saint (n.) early 12c., from Old French saint, seinte "a saint; a holy relic," displacing or altering Old English sanct, both from Latin sanctus "holy, consecrated" (used as a noun in Late Latin; also source of Spanish santo, santa, Italian san, etc.), properly past participle of sancire "consecrate" (see sacred). Adopted into most Germanic languages (Old Frisian sankt, Dutch sint, German Sanct).

"Originally an adjective prefixed to the name of a canonized person; by c.1300 it came to be regarded as a noun. Meaning "person of extraordinary holiness" is recorded from 1560s."

In a word, it means "holy". That's why, during the course of (cough) Holy Mass, you see "Spirítui Sancto" (Holy Ghost), "Dómine sancte" (Holy Lord), "sanctum Angelum" (Holy Angel), "sanctis Apóstolis" (Holy Apostles), "Sancta sanctórum" (Holy of Holies),"sanctum Evangélium" (Holy Gospel), "Ecclésiæ suæ sanctæ" (His Holy Church), "plebs tua sancta" (Thy Holy People) etc, etc...

There are lots of "St. Saviour" parishes and schools, it means holy Savior.

49 posted on 02/22/2015 12:30:33 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7

From the article...


50 posted on 02/22/2015 12:37:15 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf
Paul was not saying we would not die but that we would not sleep in death for hundreds of years as the ones who Jesus revived.

Scripture reference for this please. Your understanding of this is different than mine.

Since His resurrection from the dead and later ascension to the Father in Heaven, all who have died in Christ are still asleep in Christ (effectively: still dead) until the next resurrection of the dead (asleep) in Christ.

Then comes the Day of the Lord, and it will be a most terrible Day for all who have spurned Jesus. On that Day, He has promised to appear with His saints and all His angels in full regalia to confront the kings and armies of humans (and demons) still in opposition to what He finished on the Cross and the work the Father completed by raising Him from the dead. (How COULD He remain dead? How could we whose lives are hidden in Christ remain dead?)
51 posted on 02/22/2015 12:40:50 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: metmom

The more I learn about that “church” the more I am appalled at the lies they have fabricated to entrap people into such a false sense of hope. One would think that a mature adult with their entire eternity at stake would take the word of those closest to Jesus above that of any others.


52 posted on 02/22/2015 12:43:46 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
person of extraordinary holiness"

See the problem is an angel is NOT A PERSON ...

53 posted on 02/22/2015 12:47:06 PM PST by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero

Scripture reference for this please. Your understanding of this is different than mine.

Since His resurrection from the dead and later ascension to the Father in Heaven, all who have died in Christ are still asleep in Christ (effectively: still dead) until the next resurrection of the dead (asleep) in Christ.
——————————————————————————————You say that my understanding is different than yours but then you go on to quote exactly what I believe if I understand it right.

In the verse I used Paul was talking about the last day, or at least Jesus said he would raise us up at the last day but
We do not know if the last day is a literal day or a thousand years.


54 posted on 02/22/2015 1:05:49 PM PST by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf

Okay. Thank you.


55 posted on 02/22/2015 1:06:55 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
See the problem is an angel is NOT A PERSON ...

I hope you're saying an angel is not a HUMAN person because an angel is definitely a "who". A rock is not a person, a shrub is not a person, but an angel is a person, there are three PERSONS in one God... Point being, since an angel isn't a thing but a who, an angel is by definition a person.

Now, since you chose to pick one fragment out of my post and then prooftexted what I wrote against me I'm not sure what else to do with you other than reiterate that the word "saint" means "holy" so we have places named "holy cross", (Santa Cruz, Santa Croce, etc).

We are referred to as God's Holy People in the Holy Mass of the Holy Church. We read the Holy Gospels in the Holy Bible and celebrate holy days... all of those uses of holy derive from the same word in latin, sanctus. Surely you remember singing the Sanctus when you were a practicing Catholic...

56 posted on 02/22/2015 1:39:18 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
We are referred to as God's Holy People in the Holy Mass of the Holy Church.

Perhaps you are...but only by yourselves. Arrogant to the max to the end.
57 posted on 02/22/2015 1:51:06 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Resettozero
Perhaps you are...but only by yourselves. Arrogant to the max to the end.

You guys need to make up your minds. The citation in question:

"And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us..."

Are living Christians saints or not?!

My son walked by, looked over my shoulder and said "dad, drop the mike and say PEACE, I'M OUT". I'm inclined to take his recommendation.

58 posted on 02/22/2015 2:01:48 PM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Legatus
"And now, O Lord, we, Thy servants, and with us all Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of this same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, likewise His Resurrection from the grave, and also His glorious Ascension into heaven, do offer unto Thy most sovereign Majesty out of the gifts Thou hast bestowed upon us..."

This "citation in question", is it from the Holy Bible, or is it a prayer written by a catholic and used mainly by catholics in the Roman Catholic church? I am not acquainted with this prayer from my reading Holy Scripture. Which book of the Bible contains it?
59 posted on 02/22/2015 2:17:07 PM PST by Resettozero
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7

The whole of mankind was “saved.” But as to the Good thief, he took part in his own salvation, did he not. The other guy decided to go to the devil. We remain free to do that. Maybe we can say that Jesus, in effect,lifted the curse on mankind and liberated us as he opened the prison doors of the dead. But as you know, men grow to love their chains.


60 posted on 02/22/2015 2:22:03 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-88 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson