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Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"
Thoughts of Francis Turretine ^ | July 03, 2010 | Turretinfan

Posted on 02/22/2015 5:12:26 AM PST by RnMomof7

Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"

In a recent (2009) response to Dr. White, Robert Sungenis made some interesting admissions regarding the absence of knowledge of what Purgatory is in Roman Catholic theology:
Since the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory, and since the Church declined to make any official statements on its nature, it is only natural that people of different eras are going to come to different views of what precisely constitutes the Purgatorial experience.

... we have not settled on the nature of Purgatory ...

... the nature of Purgatory is an admitted area of unsettled knowledge in the Catholic Church ...

After we have already admitted that being in the 15% area of unsettled doctrine
the nature of Purgatory continues to be debated among “modern Roman Catholic advocates,” the truth is, it really doesn’t matter a whole lot. The fact is, Purgatory exists. It can be shown from Scripture, the Patristics, the medievals, and the Magisterium. Whether it is “days” or some other measurement is not really a make-or-break issue.
(Source: Sungenis' article oddly titled: James White, Alive but Still Struggling)

The underlying problem here, though, is that Sungenis has not fully identified the reason for the lack of common assent regarding the nature of Purgatory. While it is true that God has not revealed the nature of "Purgatory," the primary reason for the lack of common assent regarding the nature of Purgatory is that (a) Purgatory is a fiction and (b) Purgatory is a relatively new fiction. The medieval era in the West is where we really see the development of a view of Purgatory. There is no mention of any "Purgatory" in the fathers.

As Jacques Le Goff explains, "Until the end of the twelfth century the noun purgatorium did not exist: the Purgatory had not yet been born." (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth of Purgatory, p. 3 - see also, Appendix II: "Purgatorium," the History of a Word)(emphasize is Le Goff's) There may well have been vague concepts of purgation either upon death or at the day of judgment (or the like) but the idea of a third state or place given the name "Purgatory" was a long time in development from some vague comments about purging by Augustine in the 5th century (I'll leave the debate over those comments for another post).

But there is an interesting background against which Sungenis is making his claim. Benedict XV praised Dante Alighieri's work (The Divine Comedy: Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradisio) this way:
It is thus that, according to the Divine Revelation, in this poem shines out the majesty of God One and Three, the Redemption of the human race operated by the Word of God made Man, the supreme loving-kindness and charity of Mary, Virgin and Mother, Queen of Heaven, and lastly the glory on high of Angels, Saints and men; then the terrible contrast to this, the pains of the impious in Hell; then the middle world, so to speak, between Heaven and Hell, Purgatory, the Ladder of souls destined after expiation to supreme beatitude. It is indeed marvellous how he was able to weave into all three poems these three dogmas with truly wrought design.
- Benedict XV, In Praeclara Summorum, Section 4, 30 April 1921

Dante Alighieri lived from about 1265 to 1321. His work on the subject of the afterlife, including Purgatory, is one whose influence in the late medieval period, particularly in Italy, is hard to overstate. He is referred to both as the Supreme Poet of Italy and the Father of the Italian language.

His work makes clear that his view of Purgatory is that it is a place like Heaven or Hell in that it is a place having space and time. It is, for Dante, a Mountain that is to be climbed. We also see a similar view of Purgatory as a definite place in the works of Thomas Aquinas:
Article 2. Whether it is the same place where souls are cleansed, and the damned punished?

Objection 1. It would seem that it is not the same place where souls are cleansed and the damned punished. For the punishment of the damned is eternal, according to Matthew 25:46, "These shall go into everlasting punishment [Vulgate: 'fire']." But the fire of Purgatory is temporary, as the Master says (Sent. iv, D, 21). Therefore the former and the latter are not punished together in the same place: and consequently these places must needs be distinct.

Objection 2. The punishment of hell is called by various names, as in Psalm 10:7, "Fire and brimstone, and storms of winds," etc., whereas the punishment of Purgatory is called by one name only, namely fire. Therefore they are not punished with the same fire and in the same place.

Objection 3. Further, Hugh of St. Victor says (De Sacram. ii, 16): "It is probable that they are punished in the very places where they sinned." And Gregory relates (Dial. iv, 40) that Germanus, Bishop of Capua, found Paschasius being cleansed in the baths. Therefore they are not cleansed in the same place as hell, but in this world.

On the contrary, Gregory says [The quotation is from St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)]: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.

Further, the holy fathers; before the coming of Christ, were in a more worthy place than that wherein souls are now cleansed after death, since there was no pain of sense there. Yet that place was joined to hell, or the same as hell: otherwise Christ when descending into Limbo would not be said to have descended into hell. Therefore Purgatory is either close to, or the same place as, hell.

I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin.

Reply to Objection 1. The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect.

Reply to Objection 2. The punishment of hell is for the purpose of affliction, wherefore it is called by the names of things that are wont to afflict us here. But the chief purpose of the punishment of Purgatory is to cleanse us from the remains of sin; and consequently the pain of fire only is ascribed to Purgatory, because fire cleanses and consumes.

Reply to Objection 3. This argument considers the point of special dispensation and not that of the common law.
- Thomas Aquinas (as completed by Reginald of Piperno), Summa Theologica, Supplement to the Third Part, Appendix 2, Article 2 (Although Reginald is given credit for adding this material to the Summa Theologica, the material is essentially taken word for word from Thomas Aquinas' Commentary on [Peter Lombard's] Sentences, Book IV, Distinction 21, Article 1, with some omissions of the materials found there, but no obvious insertions that affect the meaning)

Notice that in this discussion, Thomas Aquinas (lived about 1225 - 1274) suggests that Purgatory occupies two places: one place is in or below Hell - the other is at various specific times in other places for particular purposes.

Notice as well that Thomas Aquinas concedes that Scripture does not tell us about the "situation" (that is, the place where it is sited - it's location) of Purgatory. Thus, he's not willing to be dogmatic about it. However, Thomas Aquinas does believe that there were "revelations made to many" about Purgatory.

The bottom line is that, as Le Goff said, the Purgatory is something born in the 12th century. It is something that took shape as a definite place in the writings of folks like Dante and Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. Yet it is something that one today hears promoted as simply a state, not a place, from sources like EWTN (example) based on comments such as the following from John Paul II:
Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.
- John Paul II, General Audience, 4 August 1999, Section 5

So, while we certainly agree with Mr. Sungenis that Rome has not received divine revelation about the nature of Purgatory, we would simply take that a step further and note that the current teachings one gets from Rome (whether from the pope or anyone else) lack the authority of divine revelation generally. Scripture does not speak of a Purgatory, and there is no good reason for accepting the changing traditions of Rome on this subject. Waving ones hands and saying that the things that are not known are not important doesn't really address the issue behind the fact that Roman Catholics cannot even tell us with certainty whether Thomas Aquinas or John Paul II is right, when it comes to Purgatory.

-TurretinFan

N.B. As an aside, Mr. Sungenis makes reference to the idea that there is a "15% area of unsettled doctrine" in his religion. He made this number up out of thin air. He has no way of knowing how much additional doctrine his church will define this century or the next, and consequently he has no way of knowing whether the real number is 15% or 0.000001%. All he can really say is that his church makes more dogmatic statements than most other churches do.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: doctrine; hell; judgement
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To: RnMomof7

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The below verses might tell us what Jesus was doing in purgatory

Hosea 6
3 He will revive us after two days: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


21 posted on 02/22/2015 9:54:21 AM PST by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: piusv
Not the word purgatory per se, but certainly a description of a purgatorial fire. Here are the words of St Augustine

And,

It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated [atoned, be compensated] either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

However, this myth is based upon a false premise of justification

For in contrast to Scripture, in which God justifies the unGodly by counting his faith as righteousness, while purifying his heart by faith by which he is regenerated, (Rm. 4:5; Acts 15:7-9) yet it must be the kind of a faith which effects obedience, under Roman soteriology God justifies the Godly based upon his holiness, as one is "formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace) Which is normally initially "infused" via regeneration effected by the act itself of sprinkling of water (ex opere operato), thus at that point the newly baptized is fit to enter Heaven. Thus Abraham must have become born again in Gn. 15:6.

However, due to failure to maintain this and as justification is based one one's own holiness, then under the Roman system of salvation, the RC (the EOs reject the purgatory of Rome) typically must endure postmortem "purifying torments" for an indeterminate time in purgatory until they atone for sins and once again become good enough to enter Heaven.

In seeking to support this tradition with Scripture, RC invoke 2 Maccabees 12:43ff, but which only teaches praying and making offerings for the dead if perhaps God may forgive them, and which was for those died due to mortal sin, which Rome holds their is no hope for.

Other texts either refer to present chastisement or the lost, or 1Cor. 3:8ff, which only refers to suffering the loss of rewards (and implicitly the Lord's displeasure), and which only occurs after the Lord's return, not commencing at death.

22 posted on 02/22/2015 10:09:26 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ravenwolf
You made a leap of faith from "imprisoned spirits" to their location being in "purgatory". Perhaps you meant Paradise, of which the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the thief on the cross with Him.

Take a look at the full context of the points the writer was making, as led by the Holy Spirit...at what was actually being written as opposed to the RCC personal interpretation (and manipulation) of it:

1 Peter 3
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good?
14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.”
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
23 posted on 02/22/2015 10:18:08 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: CondorFlight
The Greek Orthodox church doesn’t have that doctrine (neither do protestants); so it’s indeed something that is ‘unsettled’ and may be dropped one day by the Roman Catholic Church.

Yep...just like "limbo "

24 posted on 02/22/2015 10:33:33 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RobbyS
Purgatory does not deny true efficacy of the cross. Your comment begs the question, what did Christ means by “it is finished” ? His mission,of course, which is the salvation of the world. But the world continues, and the work of the devil continues. For which the minions of the devil reproach us, by pointing out the ways we fall short but also that Christ has not come again. Yet we die, one by one, and it is only by dying that we see the course of our life, and how many of us see a perfect trust in Him?

Was anyone (beside the thief) saved when Christ was crucified ?

25 posted on 02/22/2015 10:34:49 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: daniel1212

AMEN


26 posted on 02/22/2015 10:35:27 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: piusv; Iscool
I can give verses,but I'm guessing you'll have your own protestant interpretation of why those verses are somehow wrong. I've been down this Bible back and forth road with posters like yourself before and I am not interested in dabbling in your protestant heretical views.

Could you PLEASE share those verses ?

27 posted on 02/22/2015 10:37:08 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Resettozero

You made a leap of faith from “imprisoned spirits” to their location being in “purgatory”.


If you want to disagree it is fine but that being the case we need to stick to the scripture which we disagree on.

In the first place purgatory is just a name the Catholics call it.

To me it is a state of sleep, Jesus went and awakened those who were asleep and they went with him.


28 posted on 02/22/2015 10:44:29 AM PST by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: stonehouse01
2 Maccabees 12:39-42; 44-45 This is not found in Luther’s bible since he used the Palestinian canon used by the apostate Jews who never became Christian after the destruction of Jerusalem (post temple Jerusalem = whore of Babylon because those Jews had destroyed Jesus). The Alexandrian canon used by Jesus (and Catholics) contains Maccabees.

Added to the Jewish canon FOR JUST THAT PURPOSE

That book..by IT'S own declaration is not inspired ...all inspired scripture is written by prophets (those that speak for God) , and this book tells you plainly that it is not infallible scripture

In 1 Maccabees 9:27 and 14:41 we read that prophets ceased to a come to the people.
1 Mac 9:26-30
26 And they sought out, and made diligent search after the friends of Judas, and brought them to Bacchides, and he took vengeance of them, and abused them. 27 And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel.
28 And all the friends of Judas came together, and said to Jonathan:
29 Since thy brother Judas died, there is not a man like him to go forth against our enemies, Bacchides, and them that are the enemies of our nation.
30 Now therefore we have chosen thee this day to be our prince, and captain in his stead to fight our battles.
1 Mac14:41-2
41 And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet:
42 And that he should be chief over them, and that he should have the charge of the sanctuary, and that he should appoint rulers over their works, and over the country, and over the armour, and over the strong holds.

So by its own testament the book of Maccabees and the other Apocrypha could never be considered inspired scripture equal to the other inspired books of the Old Testament , as all the books of the OT were written by men that were prophets.

So we have no inspired teachings on Purgatory in the word of god.

The Catholic church adapted an uninspired practice or belief that the Jews had likely adopted from the heathen nations around them and had never been taught by God through the prophets that spoke for him

Also 1 Peter 3:19, 20 This prison is where Christ went after his death to preach to the spirits who were not yet in heaven, but not damned either (the Patriarchs). St. Augustine’s 99th epistle corroborates this (correct) interpretation, as proof that the Church has always recognized the third place, not heaven, not hell; it is not new or unsettled.

But the church has no "further" "revelation" on that right?

Could we plaease have the INFALLIBLE interpretation of this scripture from the magisterium

29 posted on 02/22/2015 11:05:42 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: piusv
It looks like Sungenis is referring to the nature of it, not the existence of it.
Worth repeating. BTTT.
30 posted on 02/22/2015 11:09:16 AM PST by eastsider
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To: CondorFlight

The Orthodox don’t call it “purgatory” (that’s a Latin word), they call it “spiritual toll-houses”.


31 posted on 02/22/2015 11:20:35 AM PST by Campion
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To: Bigg Red
I said my St. Michael prayer, as well.

How does an angel become a saint??

BTW Michael has an assignment He is the Guardian of Israel (Daniel 12:1)

32 posted on 02/22/2015 11:22:05 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Iscool
Show us ANYWHERE in the scriptures where Christians get burned...It's not there

1 Cor 3:15 and Heb 12:29. NEXT !!

33 posted on 02/22/2015 11:24:21 AM PST by Campion
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To: ravenwolf
If you want to disagree it is fine but that being the case we need to stick to the scripture which we disagree on.

In the first place purgatory is just a name the Catholics call it.

To me it is a state of sleep, Jesus went and awakened those who were asleep and they went with him.


I used the same scripture you quoted, just more of it.

You said that "purgatory is just a name Catholics call it". Call what?

If it is a "state of sleep", they are still effectively dead. Do you mean Hades?

My point is that "purgatory" is a made-up RCC doctrine/teaching/word and not an idea from Jesus or His apostles or the Holy Bible or anywhere other than from Catholic writers. It is not Scriptural or in agreement with Scripture.
34 posted on 02/22/2015 11:30:41 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: eastsider; piusv
Of course; this is well known. The only defined dogmata concerning purgatory are (a) it exists; (b) it is the state or place wherein the elect receive their final sanctification prior to entering the Beatific Vision; (c) the poor souls there are helped by the prayers of the faithful on earth.

Any further definition would be unacceptable to the East, which is why Florence studiously avoided it.

35 posted on 02/22/2015 11:31:57 AM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
The only defined dogmata concerning purgatory are (a) it exists; (b) it is the state or place wherein the elect receive their final sanctification prior to entering the Beatific Vision; (c) the poor souls there are helped by the prayers of the faithful on earth.

Any chance it's part of the doctrines of demons?
36 posted on 02/22/2015 11:39:06 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero
The word is of Latin derrivation; you aren't going to find it in a book written in Greek and Hebrew. You won't find "Trinity" there, either.

Jews pray for their dead, and did in Jesus' day. He lodged no objection to the practice that we know of. All of the ancient Christian churches pray for their dead, not only the Latins. Only you guys, in the entire Judaeo-Christian world, reject the practice.

Praying for the dead implies a state or condition in which they can be helped by your prayers, obviously.

37 posted on 02/22/2015 11:39:37 AM PST by Campion
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To: Resettozero

No. Do you have any more uncharitable questions?


38 posted on 02/22/2015 11:41:25 AM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
Only you guys, in the entire Judaeo-Christian world, reject the practice.

By "Only you guys", which group do you mean? Non-RCC Christians?
39 posted on 02/22/2015 11:44:16 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Campion
No. Do you have any more uncharitable questions?

Well, I do not agree with your negative response. I think it may be a doctrine/teaching that is not from God.

What is an "uncharitable" question?
40 posted on 02/22/2015 11:48:35 AM PST by Resettozero
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