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Is The Roman Catholic View of the Eucharist Supported by the Historical Evidence?
In Plain Site ^ | Jason Engwer

Posted on 02/20/2015 12:33:03 PM PST by RnMomof7

There aren't many subjects Catholic apologists like to discuss more than the eucharist. Even if their arguments about the papacy are refuted, even if the evidence they cite for the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and other doctrines isn't convincing, they still think they have a strong argument in the doctrine of the eucharist. They'll quote John 6 and the passages of scripture about the Last Supper. They'll quote centuries of church fathers referring to the eucharist as a sacrifice and referring to Jesus being present in the elements of the eucharist. They'll point out that even Protestants like Martin Luther have believed in a eucharistic presence. How, then, can evangelicals maintain that the eucharist is just symbolic, that there is no presence of Christ? Are evangelicals going to go up against 1500 years of church history?

This sort of reasoning seems to have had a lot of influence on evangelicals who have converted to Catholicism. Some converts to the Catholic Church even cite the eucharist as the primary issue, or one of the most significant issues, in convincing them to convert. But is the argument as compelling as so many Catholics think it is?

There are a lot of problems with this popular Catholic argument. The argument isn't even a defense of Catholicism. It's a defense of something like what the Catholic Church teaches. The Council of Trent made it clear just what the Catholic position is on this issue (emphasis added):

According to the Catholic Church, transubstantiation is the view of the eucharist always held by the Christian church. Some Catholics try to redefine this claim of the Council of Trent by saying that what Trent meant is that there was always some sort of belief in a presence in the eucharist, which was later defined more specifically as transubstantiation. While it's true that Trent doesn't claim that the word "transubstantiation" has always been used, Trent does claim that the concept has always been held by the Christian church.

There are two sentences in the quote above. The first sentence refers to a view of the eucharist always being held by the Christian church. The second sentence says that this view is transubstantiation. The way in which Trent describes the view always held by the Christian church makes it clear that transubstantiation is being described. The council refers to the whole substance of the bread and the whole substance of the wine being converted. That's transubstantiation.

Why do Catholic apologists attempt to redefine what the Council of Trent taught? Because what Trent said is false. Let's consider just some of the evidence that leads to this conclusion.

Though Catholics often cite some alleged references to their view of the eucharist in the Bible, the truth is that there's no evidence of the Catholic eucharist in scripture. John 6 is often cited as referring to eating Christ's flesh and drinking His blood by means of a transubstantiated eucharist. There are a lot of problems with the Catholic view of John 6, however, such as the fact that Jesus speaks in the present tense about how He is the bread of life and how people are responsible for eating and drinking Him. Jesus doesn't refer to how these things will begin in the future, when the eucharist is instituted. Rather, He refers to them as a present reality. And John 6:35 identifies what the eating and drinking are. The passage is not about the eucharist. (See http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/john666.htm for a further discussion of the problems with the Catholic interpretation of John 6.) Likewise, the passages about the Last Supper don't prove transubstantiation. They could be interpreted as references to a physical presence of Christ in the eucharist. That's a possibility. But they can also be interpreted otherwise.

There's no evidence for the Catholic view of the eucharist in scripture, but there is some evidence against it. In Matthew 26:29, Jesus refers to the contents of the cup as "this fruit of the vine". It couldn't be wine, though, if transubstantiation had occurred. And Jesus refers to drinking the contents of the cup with His followers again in the kingdom to come. Yet, the eucharist apparently is to be practiced only until Jesus returns (1 Corinthians 11:26). If the cup in Matthew 26:29 contained transubstantiated blood, then why would Jesus refer to drinking that substance with His followers in the future, at a time when there would be no eucharist? And if the eucharist is a sacrifice as the Catholic Church defines it to be, why is there no mention of the eucharist in the book of Hebrews?

The author of Hebrews is silent about the eucharist in places where we would expect the eucharist to be mentioned, if it was viewed as the Catholic Church views it. This is acknowledged even by Catholic scholars. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary (Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice Hall, 1990) is a Catholic commentary that some of the foremost Catholic scholars in the world contributed to. It was edited by Raymond Brown, Joseph Fitzmyer, and Roland Murphy. Near the end of the section on the book of Hebrews, the commentary admits:

There's nothing wrong with viewing the eucharist as a sacrifice in the sense of thanksgiving and praise (Hebrews 13:15). Some of the church fathers referred to the eucharist in such a way. For example, Justin Martyr wrote the following in response to the followers of Judaism who claimed to be fulfilling Malachi 1:11 (emphasis added):

These arguments of Justin Martyr are contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. According to Justin Martyr, the eucharist is a sacrifice only in the sense of being a means by which Christians offer prayers and thanksgiving to God. Justin Martyr not only says nothing of the eucharist being a sacrifice in the sense Catholics define it to be, but he even excludes the possibility of the Catholic view by saying that the eucharist is a sacrifice only in the sense of prayers and thanksgiving being offered through it. Justin Martyr seems to have had Biblical passages like Hebrews 13:15 in mind, which is a concept that evangelicals agree with. The eucharist is a sacrifice in that sense.

Some church fathers defined the eucharist as a sacrifice differently than Justin Martyr, including in ways that are similar to the Catholic view. But Justin Martyr illustrates two things. First, it's false to claim that all of the church fathers viewed the eucharist as the Catholic Church views it. Secondly, the eucharist can be referred to as a sacrifice in numerous ways. It's not enough for Catholic apologists to cite a church father referring to the eucharist as a sacrifice. What type of sacrifice did the church father believe it to be? And how convincing are that church father's arguments?

Even more than they discuss the concept that the eucharist is an atoning sacrifice, Catholics argue that there's a presence of Christ in the eucharist, and that the church fathers agreed with them on this issue. Some Catholics will even claim that every church father believed in a presence in the eucharist. They'll often cite a scholar like J.N.D. Kelly referring to the church fathers believing in a "real presence" in the eucharist. But what these Catholics often don't do is quote what Kelly goes on to say. As Kelly explains, the church fathers defined "real presence" in a number of ways, including ways that contradict transubstantiation. Some of the church fathers were closer to the consubstantiation of Lutheranism or the spiritual presence of Calvinism, for example.

See the section titled "The Church and the Host" at:
http://www.aomin.org/JRWOpening.html

Also see the historian Philip Schaff's comments in section 69 at:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/2_ch05.htm

And section 95 at:
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch07.htm

I also recommend consulting Schaff's footnotes, since the notes cite additional passages from the fathers and cite other scholars confirming Schaff's conclusions.

The church fathers held a wide variety of views on subjects such as how to interpret John 6 and Christ's presence in the eucharist. For example, Clement of Alexandria wrote the following about John 6 (emphasis added):

In another passage, Clement contradicts transubstantiation. He writes the following about how Christians should conduct themselves when drinking alcohol (emphasis added):

Clement, like evangelicals, cites Matthew 26:29 as evidence that Jesus drank wine. If Clement believed that wine is what was drunk at the Last Supper, he didn't believe in transubstantiation.

Similarly, Irenaeus denies transubstantiation in his writings. He seems to have believed in consubstantiation rather than the Catholic view of the eucharist. For example (emphasis added):

Irenaeus describes the eucharist as consisting of two realities, one that comes from Heaven and another that's from the earth. He refers to the eucharist as an example of drinking wine, the same substance that people will drink in Christ's future kingdom, after the eucharist has served its purpose (1 Corinthians 11:26). Irenaeus, like Clement of Alexandria, contradicts transubstantiation. Though Irenaeus does seem to have believed in a presence in the eucharist, it isn't transubstantiation.

Other examples could be cited, and other examples are cited in the article I linked to above. It's a historical fact that the church fathers held a variety of eucharistic beliefs, including some that contradict what the Catholic Church teaches. This fact is contrary to the Council of Trent's claim that transubstantiation had always been the view held by the Christian church.

It should be noted, also, that many evangelicals believe in a presence in the eucharist. Some believe in consubstantiation. Some believe in a spiritual presence. Evangelicals don't even have to hold to any specific view. Jesus and the apostles told Christians to celebrate the eucharist. A Christian can do so without knowing whether there's any presence of Christ in the eucharist or what type of presence there is. For an evangelical, this issue isn't too significant. The reliability of our rule of faith (the Bible) isn't dependent on proving that Christ is present in the eucharist in some particular way. Catholics, on the other hand, must defend the Catholic Church's allegedly infallible teaching of transubstantiation. They must also defend the Council of Trent's claim that transubstantiation is the view always held by the Christian church, as well as Trent's claim that every other view is unacceptable. Evangelicals just don't carry the same burden of proof that Catholics carry on this issue. Catholics can't say that this is unfair, since the claims of the Catholic Church itself are what create the added burden of proof for the Catholic apologist. If you don't want to have to carry such a burden, then tell your denomination to quit making such weighty claims.

In summary:

The eucharist is another issue that illustrates how anachronistic, misleading, and false many of the claims of the Catholic Church are. Some Catholics seem to ignore or minimize their denomination's errors on issues like the papacy and the Immaculate Conception, because they think that the Catholic Church is at least closer to the truth than evangelicalism on other issues, like the eucharist. But such reasoning is fallacious. For one thing, all it takes is one error to refute Catholicism. Since the Catholic Church teaches that its traditions are just as authoritative as scripture, an error on one subject also disproves what the Catholic Church has taught on other subjects. If the Immaculate Conception doctrine is contrary to the evidence, for example, that isn't just problematic for the doctrine that Mary was immaculately conceived. It's also problematic for the doctrine of papal infallibility, since Pope Pius IX allegedly was exercising that power when he declared Mary to be conceived without sin. When the Catholic Church is shown to be wrong on the eucharist, the Immaculate Conception, or some other issue, that has implications for far more than just that one doctrine.

With regard to the eucharist, consider one of the larger implications of the Catholic Church being wrong on that subject. If it's true that the church fathers held a wide variety of eucharistic beliefs, and that they also held a wide variety of beliefs on a lot of other subjects, what does that tell us about early church history? It tells us that it's unlikely that the church fathers were part of one worldwide denomination headed by a Pope. What's more likely is that the church fathers disagreed with each other so much because they belonged to churches that were governmentally independent of one another, and they interpreted the scriptures for themselves. In fact, many of the church fathers specifically said as much. The fact that there were so many differing views among the church fathers, including views that contradict what the Catholic Church teaches, suggests that they weren't Roman Catholics.

If the Catholic Church isn't reliable, what are we to conclude about the eucharist, then? What do we do if we can't trust Catholicism to tell us what to believe? We ought to go to the scriptures. And if the beliefs of the church fathers and other sources are relevant in some way, we should also consider those things. We should study the issue ourselves instead of just uncritically accepting whatever an institution like the Roman Catholic Church teaches. When we go to the scriptures, we find that a number of eucharistic views are plausible, but transubstantiation isn't one of them (Matthew 26:29). The concept that the eucharist is an atoning sacrifice is unacceptable. Trying to continually offer Christ's sacrifice as an atonement for our sins, and offering it as a further atonement of the temporal portion of sins already forgiven, is contrary to what's taught in the book of Hebrews, such as Hebrews 9:12-10:18. For example, in Hebrews 9:25-26, we see the author distinguishing between Christ's sacrifice and the offering of that sacrifice. Not only was Christ only sacrificed once, but He also offered that one sacrifice to God only once. Catholics acknowledge that there was only one sacrifice, but they argue that the one sacrifice is offered repeatedly through the eucharist. This claim of the Catholic Church is contrary to scripture. And there are a lot of other contradictions between what scripture teaches on these subjects and what the Catholic Church teaches, especially in the book of Hebrews. We can reasonably arrive at a number of different views of the eucharist, but the Catholic view isn't one of them.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: bread; doctrine; worship
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To: Arthur McGowan
So back to the post....do we still need to offer God a sacrifice?

Yes.

So... Christ -- God the Son -- lied.

Nice to know that the Roman Catholic Cult is exactly that -- a cult.

On the cross, Christ said, "It is finished."

Hoss

241 posted on 02/21/2015 8:35:41 AM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: terycarl
To you, it may be...to 1,300,000,000 Catholics, and to innumerable Catholics over 20 CENTURIES, it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine....How sad that you can't comprehend the truth...

Reconcile with these words:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13)

Truth isn't determined by poll or consensus.

242 posted on 02/21/2015 8:40:59 AM PST by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: elhombrelibre
Will you be starting an anti-Judaism effort, too, to round out your learning and spiritual growth, or will you just whip venom for the “catholics?” Surely, that is important thing impacting your life as well.

I will evaluate everything against Christianity. If it doesn't measure up to the teachings of Christ, there will probably be discussion about it.

243 posted on 02/21/2015 8:42:24 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: NKP_Vet
>“You might check out how many articles have been posted by NKP_Vet”<

Show me an article I have posted that was specifically putting down protestants? You can’t. I post articles about my Catholic faith, which of course in turn is always viciously attacked by the usual haters on FR. Same old garbage, different day. It never changes.

And the reading skills of catholicism never cease to amaze me.

Go back and read the thread....did I say you posted anything putting down protestants? Man, catholics have thin skin.

If you don't like comments made on your postings, hide them behind the causus thread. Then you and all the catholics can hide in your own little world.

It's that plain and simple.

Until then, this is FREE REPUBLIC where we have a right to comment on whatever we want.

244 posted on 02/21/2015 8:47:36 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: LurkingSince'98
Yes the protestant way - believe whatever you want.

I'm sure glad that Catholics never misrepresent Protestant views. (/sarcasm)

245 posted on 02/21/2015 8:50:43 AM PST by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: Elsie

The facts are that Protestants, Wiccans, Buddhists, atheists, Conservatives are ALL to blame as well.

But NONE of them are out in front of abortion mills day-in day-out trying for sidewalk conversions of heart of the poor (often underage) women who are often pressured by the very men (who impregnated them) to get the abortion.

I speak for all the Catholic sidewalk counselors who are daily on the line out front of the abortion mills.

Unless you’ve been out front how do you even have standing to open your mouth in criticism??


246 posted on 02/21/2015 8:54:01 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: HossB86

I am a Roman Catholic because I believe it is the one, true faith.

I have no reservations about it.

It is the wonderful thing about Catholicism, prots can rail on and on and not make one jot of change in our faith.

It is like your posting to a brick wall.

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam


247 posted on 02/21/2015 9:01:01 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: CommerceComet

Like I said prots can believe anything they want - it is all about your own ‘personal interpretation of Scripture’.

You can believe it is a misrepresentation of prot beliefs, but I am repeating exactly what I have been told by prots of all denominations.

AMDG


248 posted on 02/21/2015 9:05:21 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: HereInTheHeartland
First of all you didn't answer my question.

>>These same words have been thrown around for hundreds of years.<<

Satan hasn't gone away nor has he stopped trying to pervert what God said. He won't until Christ defeats him at the end of this age.

>>How about we focus on the fact that Jesus Christ died for all of us; as a common theme instead?<<

Read what Christ had to say to the 7 churches in the beginning of Revelation. He didn't say just focus on your similarities.

>>Islam’s threat and the destruction of our Constitution are the things that should be discussed on FR rather than this stuff.<<

Muslims can kill the body. False teaching can kill the soul. I doubt I have to tell you which is worse and should be focused on first.

249 posted on 02/21/2015 9:16:06 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: LurkingSince'98
Like I said prots can believe anything they want - it is all about your own ‘personal interpretation of Scripture’.

I've seen a number of catholics on this site disagree with the rcc.

So what you're saying is that every Sunday, at every service around the world, every priest is saying EXACTLY the same thing? No deviation whatsoever.

Any posting or article by a catholic priest has been cleared with Rome? Every one?

250 posted on 02/21/2015 9:20:23 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: HossB86
>>Doesn’t answer mine either — I think it’s that Cultic training —<<

That plus if it's not on their list from the "church" they are lost.

251 posted on 02/21/2015 9:22:24 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: terycarl
Now if we take that last sentence, which obviously referred to what He had just done, and diagram it as we were taught to do in the 4th grade we will come upon this: the sentence is imperative therefore the subject (you) is understood, "do" is the verb...This.. is the subject of the sentence....You do this....is a complete sentence....you do this.....then He tells you why to do this....to remember Him by.....you do THIS in remembrance of Me.....THIS refers to what He had just done......transubstantiated bread and wine into His Body, Blood Soul and Divinity while retaining its appearance as that of bread and wine......see how easy it is when you READ and pay attention??

Despite your explanation (and ignoring the condescending attitude), why would anyone understand it that way? It seems that you are forcing the command to say what you want it to say, not what it says.

If in normal conversation, I were to say to you "do this." Your immediate response would be "do what?" You would expect the command to be followed by instructions, not the other way around.

You stated correctly that the "you" is inferred in the phrase "do this." If "this" refers to transubstantiation, do you have that power to turn the bread into the physical body of Christ and the wine into the physical blood of Christ? If I follow your logic that is what is implied. If, on the other hand, I understand the sentence in its natural reading and the "this" refers to the taking of the elements, I am perfectly capable of taking the bread and wine with remembrance of Him.

252 posted on 02/21/2015 9:29:44 AM PST by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: LurkingSince'98
I am a Roman Catholic because I believe it is the one, true faith. I have no reservations about it. It is the wonderful thing about Catholicism, prots can rail on and on and not make one jot of change in our faith. It is like your posting to a brick wall. Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

I am a Christian because it is the one, true faith. I have no reservations about it.

There is a difference.

253 posted on 02/21/2015 9:32:53 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone

There can only be ONE TRUTH

So one of us is living the UNTRUTH.

For the Greater Glory of God


254 posted on 02/21/2015 9:44:25 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: CommerceComet

ignoring the condescending attitude

dont ignore the condesecending attitude

If the shoe fits - wear it

AMDG


255 posted on 02/21/2015 9:47:41 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: LurkingSince'98; ealgeone
You can believe it is a misrepresentation of prot beliefs, but I am repeating exactly what I have been told by prots of all denominations.

I suspect that is more what you wanted to hear than what was actually expressed. Having run in Protestant circles for 30+ years, I have noted no such sentiment EVER. No true Protestant feels they have the authority to "believe whatever you want." We are constrained by God's Word without central human authority telling us what it says through poor exegesis and fallible tradition.

256 posted on 02/21/2015 9:49:25 AM PST by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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Comment #257 Removed by Moderator

To: CommerceComet

Well then you must have never been on the pre- post- anti- millenial threads.

You need to get out more - cause I am quoting from protestants themselves.

AMDG


258 posted on 02/21/2015 9:53:36 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GOD)
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To: LurkingSince'98; terycarl
If the shoe fits - wear it

One post addressed the logic of the statements made, the other questioned people's ability to read at a 4th grade level. Perhaps, I should have been more blunt and called a spade a spade and called him out on childish insults but I tried a more tactful approach and labeled it condescension. I was hoping for a real response without the poor attitude shown in the first post.

259 posted on 02/21/2015 10:05:57 AM PST by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; CommerceComet
>>You need to get out more - cause I am quoting from protestants themselves.<<

I don't suppose we should wait for you to show documented proof of those allegations right?

260 posted on 02/21/2015 10:08:23 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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