How the fictional early papacy became real

Beggars All Martin Luther's Mariology ^ | June 7,2010 | John Bugay

[Elsie]

It's always been about usurping authority and the mammon.

 

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  

[Elsie]

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. .

Mighty bold talk for a one-eyed fatman!

[Elsie]

Purposefully dividing this community is not the intent of the site.

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

[Elsie]

And I am good friends with many Protestant ministers and pastors who have never felt the need to attack my Faith.

Golly; what 'friends' you have!

Did you meet them at Ecumenical Gatherings?

---

 

Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?

 

Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

 

 

 

 

 

Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 

Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[Elsie]

but we also both believe that Jesus is our Savior so let's just drop the taunts and insults and focus on Him.

Catholics CAN'T!!

They are BRAINWASHED to endlessly prattle this mantra:

Hail MARY, Mother of GOD, Pray for us...

[Elsie]

It's that kind of know-nothingism that gives Americans a bad name.

Poor ol' Americans!

WhatEVER shall they do??

[Elsie]

Do I have to prove I’m not Shirley, or do you have to prove that I am considering you accused me of being Shirley?

I appreciate that you appreciate that!

[Elsie]

...I can do the same with Protestant Preachers who founded their own churches and couldn't keep their pants zipped, but that's not necessary.

And That'll keep Protestants SO busy that they'll not have TIME to point out CatholicISM's faults!

[Elsie]

I’m done here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

[kalee]

For later

[Elsie]

The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.

And using this little tidbit; Rome can make up anything it wants and then claim; "Well... Jesus COULD have said it. He COULD have done it."

Genesis 3

...did GOD really say...

[Elsie]

We have said this so many times on these threads, so it continues to amaze me how some never seem to get the memo.

Just because a well-known NAZI said this; it doesn't mean it's not true...

" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -
- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

[Elsie]

 

 

 

Members of the Angelic Warfare Confraternity say fifteen Hail Marys daily for one another that they may lead a chaste life.

http://www.angelicwarfareconfraternity.org/resources/prayers/

 

[metmom]

The Bible Itself declares that it doesn't contain everything.

So?

That proves nothing and it certainly doesn't give anyone license to make stuff up and pass it off as truth.

The Mormons claim extra-Biblical revelation as well. Why should we believe your church's claims over theirs?

[metmom]

Not to mention all the RC’s who support abortion and homosexual marriage and who have gotten divorces when they couldn’t afford an annulment.

[metmom]

Whoo hoo!!! Preach it, brother!!!

Do you think it acutally may sink in to some RC’s head?

Do you mind if I grab that for future use?

[metmom]

Oh noes......

Now someone is going to sic the mod on you.....

[BlueDragon]

Mr. Bugay is ignorant of the biblical arguments for the papacy.

I'm sure he's heard it all before. I know I have. The argument you make may sound good, but upon closer examination (and wider encompassing of fuller considerations of Scripture & history both) falls far short of that argument's apparently intended ends.

Speaking of biblical arguments, perhaps Romanists are blind to the plentiful array of biblical argument against there being one singular, earthly and human, "bishop of bishops" type of thinking to have been imposed upon the Church?

As far as I can tell, "they" sure do seem to block out (of their own minds and considerations) all of that which is opposed to what later developed, as for the office 'papacy', for Rome alone.

When these things (and history, both) are brought to "their" attention, as can be seen evident on this thread --- first --- many and varied forms of hostility (and outright hatreds) towards those who point at the elements which refute Romish claims (as for Supremacy of it's own bishop, and themselves also over all others whom would be considered Christian) come bubbling to the surface.

Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, according to His own words.

Trying to extend earthy, Davidic Kingdom, wherein in some alleged successor to 'Peter', is as a stand-in, a placeholder for Jesus Himself, has been shown by history, in many aspects and instance, to be something of a horror, a sickness in the body of the Church.

Christ did not establish that sort of kingdom -- for Peter, to then be passed singularly to some later line of successors, which would be only those of the bishopric at Rome, leaving all the rest owing some form of unilateral submission to that one office.

The early Church had no such 'papacy' as later developed. They knew of no such thing, but instead there was one Church, wherein all bishops were seen as "successor to Peter" (when that sort of talk first began to surface) as they were inheritors of all of rest which Christ had bestowed upon the disciples.

Yet again, whenever the covers are pulled back, then those of Rome howl something fierce, attacking all those whom would disagree, much as you yourself (more mildly) began by calling men like Bugay "ignorant".

Same to you? I could call you and most every other apologist for 'Rome' the same. But it's not merely ignorance, as much as it is something else, with the truth still denied by those of Rome who present "read-in-between-the-lines" style of Scriptural eisogesis in effort to establish that there was a particular concept (singular papacy, for Rome alone), from the onset of the early, most primitive church.

The concept itself was a stranger among the early Church. I guess all those ECF's were just a bunch of idiots for having not noticed (for so long!) that to Rome was to go the glory? More on that, later...

The Apostles (note the plural?) Great Commission was not to rule as titled king in the earthly manner of David, but instead the authority given was to preach the Gospel (not pervert or edit it, for their own ends, as has many a Roman Church Pontiff since).

Luke:22-30

24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

If it had instead been something of history, and a singular office that was purposefully established amid the earliest era of the Church --- then the Apostles did an extremely poor job of conveying the validity of Rome's own later arising claims for themselves (and their bishop) to rule like a king.

Compare what is found in Scripture;

Acts 10

25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”

with 'Pope' Gregory VII in the 11th century writing that "all princes must kiss his [own] feet".

As one daring Jew put things to be;

Kissing the pope’s feet gets the boot.

But you know what? Much like the apology for having burned Jan Hus (and Jerome of Prague) alive, at the stake;

It's far too little,
And far too late.

The gig is up. Busted.

Popes of today's modern era are embarrassed by such things. (Ratzinger was, as far as I could read in between the lines...)

The Reformation helped bring that more closely to their attention --- although among Romish practice the priests still prostrate themselves (at times and places) and the people of the Church are seen always as lesser ranked. To the extent which the members of the RC Church are today -- not seen as "lesser", again, give some thanks for the Protestant Reformation. Without that, there would have been no United States of America as we know it (knew it, once?) either, and God only knows how fiendishly rank Romish Catholicism would have further regressed into being...

Time to start over? Rome has been trying to shed it's own errors of the past, but can't quite seem to fully come clean --- and then let go.

That's what happens when far too much faith is put in "Church", rather than in the power of God, which is His own alone.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear Oh Israel;

The Lord our God is one Lord

From Mark 12 verse 29

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

He must swear upon Himself, for He can swear by none higher.

Popes can't do that, but rather, as the rest of us should let our yeahs be yeahs and our nays be nays

And now that Valentine's Day is passed...some Bonnie Riatt,

I Can't Make You Love Me

[Graybeard58]

That poster is telling the truth. Too bad the ones who need it the most do not see that.

Well, a big amen to that my sister.

We'll continue to pray that the blindness to the truth be healed by the tried and true Healer.

[HossB86]

Sorry, LadyDoc... No doubt there are plenty of heretical contentions to be found in the Orthodox Church as well. I was dealing with the Cult of Rome in a thread that dealt with Roman Cultism.

When the opportunity presents itself, I’ll try to be less ethnocentric.

:)

Hoss