Mass as nourishment, not as obligation

OSV ^ | February 5, 2015 | Melinda Selmys

[Elsie]

I imagine many here already associate you with insane, obsessive anti-others’ religions.

Oh; I imagine you are quite right!

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Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

If a person wishes to "lurk", so be it. They are not obliged to answer.

What if I ping them?

THEN are they required to?

[Elsie]

I was SURE you said, not to put you on a LIST to ping you.

Yup; I DID remember correctly.

Re: Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?
From truth_seeker | 12/31/2014 9:08:58 AM PST replied

Do NOT add my name to distribution lists, without my consent.

[Elsie]

And please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm trying to get some OUT!

Which ones, that you have evidence for, show me trying to put IN?

[CynicalBear]

>>Why do all their loaded questions continually misfire?<<

Oh what a tangled web they weave.......

[Grateful2God]

"But; are YOU assured of Salvation?
Just how long will YOU spend in purgatory?"

That's between God and me, His decision, when I die and my particular judgement takes place. The general judgement takes place at the end of the world. I never take my Salvation for granted. I pray for the grace to do God's Will in my life, and trust in His Mercy, that I may one day attain Heaven.

[CynicalBear]

>>..that evidence of someone being 'poorly catechized' is revealed here?<<

Oh my!! Perhaps they could work it out between the two of them or should intervention by Catholic Clergy be called in? If there is lack of personal freedom to decide, which is an area I am unfamiliar with, I'll have to leave it to those who subject themselves to their own higher masters I suppose.

[Kolokotronis]

In the ecclesiology of the Eastern Church, the Laos tou Theou, the People of God, are the guardians of Orthodoxy, whether at the parish level, the diocese or metropolitan level or that of a Patriarchate. We have been called upon to exercise that obligation even in my lifetime, Elsie. It’s different from the ecclesiology in the Western Church.

[Elsie]

I never take my Salvation for granted.

This sounds like a mighty fearful life to me!

Follow these learned men's teachings and you can rest assured!

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Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

[CynicalBear]

>>The human mind, when presented with two opposing 'things', will ALWAYS choose the more familiar.<<

New there ya went and done it. Saying I don't have a human mind are ya? Oh....wait,,,,,

1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Never mind! Carry on.

[Grateful2God]

One can do so in a polite, civil, adult Christian manner; calmly, without all-caps screaming; biting sarcasm; graphics and cartoons; diversion of subject matter; avoidance of questions by those at whom they are directed; repeated use of all-caps, etc. These are counter-productive. It's as simple as that.

And if I wish to complain when what I hold dear is treated thus, yes, I will indeed complain.

[Grateful2God]

“This sounds like a mighty fearful life to me!”
Not at all. I wouldn’t give it up for anything!

[Grateful2God]

That’s your interpretation, including the fodder about the Blessed Sacrament being a “cracker.”

[Steelfish]

Yes, you do play internet theologian and for all the reasons previously stated on this thread.

You reject the fact that before the Bible there is the Church as supported by the writings of the early theologians, we call the Church fathers and by Catholic theologians whose teaching are enshrined as part of the theological curriculum in prestigious universities.

You dispute that there is ONE truth, since everyone and their grandmother, and as Luther would say the milkmaid, can open a Bible and supply their own interpretations. Go try telling Jim Jones and David Koresh that they were wrong? Or Rev. Wright? You don’t have the intepretative authority given exclusively St. Peter ad his successors and to the ONE Church that is universal in its CREDO, its beliefs, and its forms of veneration and worship.

This is evidently by the fact that throw out a swamp of quotations with no clue how these must be read and understood in context of the whole fabric of Christology as others have done and, upon seeing how absurd the interpretations given those quotes you cite have led them to convert to Catholicism.

You refuse to examine the works of those Protestants who have spent a lifetime studying scripture, including early historical sources, those learned in Greek and Hebrew and have found Bible-Christianity not only shallow but absurdly wrong to the point of being illiterate.

By your lights, the early Church fathers, Catholic and Protestant theologians who converted, the saints, the martyrs, the stigmatists, and all those thousands of others from Bobby Jindal to Tony Blair to Jewish Rabbis, and Nobel Laureates, were all wrong.

Can’t you see the sheer preposterous nature of the arguments you advance that they have become a caricature.

Yes, none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[CynicalBear]

>>One can do so in a polite, civil, adult Christian manner; calmly, without all-caps screaming; biting sarcasm; graphics and cartoons; diversion of subject matter; avoidance of questions by those at whom they are directed; repeated use of all-caps, etc.<<

You should have been around to school Jesus on that. You have taught Him a thing or two.

Matthew 23: you hypocrites!, hypocrites!, you hypocrites!, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are., blind guides!, You blind fools!, You blind guides!, Blind Pharisee!, You snakes!, You brood of vipers!,

Those were all taken from just one conversation!! You could have shown Him how He should have been more polite.

[Grateful2God]

>>Do you, according to your personal Biblical interpretation, set a day aside as we do, with services/special worship, family time, restraint from unnecessary servile work?<<
"Well, that's a rather loaded question."

How so? You quoted Scripture, but how do you choose to interpret it? I know what the Church teaches. What do you interpret, and how do you put it into practice?

It's a matter of taking personal responsibility, not only for what you interpret, but for what is proselytized in your posts.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

[CynicalBear]

>>That’s your interpretation, including the fodder about the Blessed Sacrament being a “cracker.”<<

Nope, God always condemned making images of Gods including images of Him.

Leviticus 26:1 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

Acts 17:29 And since this is true, we shouldn't think of God as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone.

[metmom]

Yeah, and maybe it’ll stop snowing by then.

But then again, it’s only April so probably not.

We have almost a foot on tap for the weekend.

>:(

[Grateful2God]

Like the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, or the serpent on the staff?

Peace be with you, Bear!