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To: Dr. Thorne; 9thLife; ravenwolf; dartuser
It's not +Paul's fault that some folks seem to read excerpts of his epistles and read them out of context. To read the Bible as just excerpts leads one to innumerable errors ranging from Marcionism to Jehovah's witnesses to Unitarians.

I don't believe that Luther intended the chaos that ensued after him, in fact he was horrified by Calvin and loathed Zwingli and also the Anabaptists and saw that with his removal of context.

For example, in The German Mass and Order of Divine Service, 1526 A.D., Section 3,iii,h he wrote
Otherwise, where there is no spiritual understanding, and the Spirit himself speaks not through the preacher (though I set no limits to the preacher; for the Spirit can teach better than any Postills or Homilies) the end of it will be that every man will preach what he likes; and, instead of the Gospel and its exposition, they will be preaching once more about blue ducks! There are further reasons why we keep the Epistles and Gospels as they are arranged in the Postills, because there are but few inspired preachers who can handle a whole Gospel or other book with force and profit.
As Luther told Zwingli
“I do not ask how Christ can be God and man and how His natures could be united. For God is able to act far beyond our imagination. To the Word of God one must yield. It is up to you to prove that the body of Christ is not there when Christ Himself says, ‘This is my body.’ I do not want to hear what reason says. I completely reject carnal or geometrical arguments…”

Luther believed that just as the body of Christ was necessary for salvation, so a physical presence of Christ was important for the Lord’s Supper. Luther saw Zwingli’s ideology as one that denied Christ’s true humanity.

DCCLVII. I wish from my heart Zwinglius could be saved, but I fear the contrary; for Christ has said that those who deny him shall be damned. God’s judgment is sure and certain, and we may safely pronounce it against all the ungodly, unless God reserve unto himself a peculiar privilege and dispensation. Even so, David from his heart wished that his son Absalom might be saved, when he said: ‘Absalom my son, Absalom my son;’ yet he certainly believed that he was damned, and bewailed him, not only that he died corporally, but was also lost everlastingly; for he knew that he had died in rebellion, in incest, and that he had hunted his father out of the kingdom.

Martin Luther, Table Talk Number 2387 a-b, as quoted in Frans Funck-Bretano, _Luther_, 1939, p.319
Zwingli was the one who decided that human reasoning was enough to read the biblical texts. Zwingli’s view on the sacraments has permeated Presbyterian and Reformatted attempts to rewrite the bible to fit human reasoning.

And Luther combatted this strongly
After three days of hotly debating with Martin Luther in Marburg the nature of the Eucharist, Huldreich Zwingli, the Swiss Reformer, gripped Luther’s hands and said: “Here we’re fighting. Doctor Martinus, but, thank God, one nice day we both will be dead and then in Heaven we shall know the Truth, walking with the great sages, with Socrates, Plato, Aristotle . . .”

“Doctor Zwingli,” Luther interrupted him rudely, “They were pagans; they were not baptized; they are roasting in the everlasting fires of Hell.”

“But they were good men, were virtuous and followed their consciences.”

“If you talk like this, you’re not a Christian—and I regret to have wasted my time with you,” Luther snapped back

59 posted on 02/04/2015 12:03:08 AM PST by Cronos (ObamaÂ’s dislike of Assad is not based on AssadÂ’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cronos

Most protestants don’t know about Luther and his debate with Zwingli, nor do they know that Zwinglis view of communion was not shared by Calvin and most of the other early reformers.


68 posted on 02/04/2015 5:15:03 AM PST by Lakeshark
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To: Cronos
(though I set no limits to the preacher; for the Spirit can teach better than any Postills or Homilies)

Martin Luther was addressing your Catholic religion here...Protestants don't do Postills and Homilies...Not that I'm aware of...

After three days of hotly debating with Martin Luther in Marburg the nature of the Eucharist, Huldreich Zwingli, the Swiss Reformer, gripped Luther’s hands and said: “Here we’re fighting. Doctor Martinus, but, thank God, one nice day we both will be dead and then in Heaven we shall know the Truth, walking with the great sages, with Socrates, Plato, Aristotle . . .”

“Doctor Zwingli,” Luther interrupted him rudely, “They were pagans; they were not baptized; they are roasting in the everlasting fires of Hell.”

Again, Luther was addressing the Catholic religion...It is your religion that is based on the pagan wisdom of men...Philosophers...

The first 3 years of the Catholic priesthood is based on the study of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle to learn their pagan wisdom...

But heh, nice try...

76 posted on 02/04/2015 5:47:21 AM PST by Iscool
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