Posted on 01/28/2015 7:00:21 AM PST by Stingray
“Can you point to Biblical evidence that ALL of those things happened ? Where is it recorded it the Bible that those things happened ?
Cite chapter and verse.”
Considering that the entire NT canon was written no later than 70 AD, you would be hard pressed to find proof of it in the Bible, since all of this would’ve coincided with the events of 70 AD.
However, the first resurrection is recorded in Matthew 27:51-53.
But I find it utterly amazing how Futurists are so quick to change the subject when they the topic of this thread is the four horsemen, not the resurrection. Maybe you should go back and read the OP a few times until the point settles in, eh?
Matthew 27:51-53 does not record any living people being taken up into the clouds.
So that has not happened yet.
Can you face the fact yet that full preterism is easily proved heresy, as we just did ?
I did not change topics, I was responding to full preterist views.
Much of what is mistakenly viewed today as “end times” prophecy did indeed occur in AD 70, and that knowledge has been handed down throughout the years, but many today are ignorant of it. However, the Day of the Lord, or Day of Judgement, is an essential part of Biblical doctrine.
“Can you face the fact yet that full preterism is easily proved heresy, as we just did ?”
Not at all. You’ve demonstrated nothing.
Matthew 27:51-53 records what happened at Christ’s crucifixion.
1 Thessalonians can not contain prophecy that was fulfilled in Matthew 27 because Thessalonians was written years after the crucifixion by the Apostle Paul.
So we have prophecy (NOTE THAT THE CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION ARE MENTIONED IN THE PROPHETIC TEXT, JUST IN CASE IT MAY SLIP BY UNNOTICED):
1 Thessalonians 4
“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
I ask again for evidence that this prophecy has come to pass in history.
If it has not, then it most certainly will come to pass in the future.
It’s quite preposterous to think that this prophecy has already come to pass.
So you can’t face the fact yet. You’re not arguing with me so much as you’re arguing with 1 Thessalonians.
“Matthew 27:51-53 records what happened at Christ’s crucifixion.”
No. if you read the text carefully, it records what happens at His resurrection: the first resurrection, or “first fruits.”
“1 Thessalonians can not contain prophecy that was fulfilled in Matthew 27 because Thessalonians was written years after the crucifixion by the Apostle Paul.”
I never wrote that it was. However, again, you’re pulling passages explicitly written for the Thessalonians and trying to, somehow, make them as appear as though they are written to us.
Did you read Daniel 12:1-4, 7? Did you read Revelation 22:10?
Do you understand what those verses are saying? If not, then your repeated appeals to a physical resurrection intended for us at Christ’s return mean nothing.
“I ask again for evidence that this prophecy has come to pass in history.
If it has not, then it most certainly will come to pass in the future.
It’s quite preposterous to think that this prophecy has already come to pass.”
Not at all. It’s only preposterous if you believe the resurrection of believers has to happen the way in which you believe it will. But again, I already know what you believe, and it’s not what the Bible actually teaches. You can discover the truth here:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/1999_curtis_resurrection.html
“So you can’t face the fact yet.”
No, my FRiend. It’s you who cannot face the truth.
“However, the Day of the Lord, or Day of Judgement, is an essential part of Biblical doctrine.”
And if you look at all of those “Day of the Lord” passages, you will notice at least two things about them:
1. There was more than one “day of the Lord” in ancient history, according to the OT, because every “day of the Lord” was associated with God’s judgment on a nation. Further, IN EVERY CASE BUT ONE, God used human agents to execute His judgments: the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, and - finally - the Romans. The only exception to this was Noah’s Flood, where God used nature to destroy all but a few people and animals.
2. Virtually all of the prophets foretelling of God’s judgment used the same apocalyptic, hyperbolic, language intended to impress upon their hearers/readers what a frightful fate it was to be judged by God. Suns darkening, stars falling, mountains moving are all images intended to convey social, economic, and cultural upheavals that would attend such judgment events.
If the stars are literally going to “fall from the sky”, which way will they fall? Will the sun supernova before it goes dark?
This inability to understand such language as symbolic is why those in the church are commonly referred to as “hicks”, “Bible-thumpers”, “anti-science” and “anti-reason.” Between mainline denominations that teach a literal interpretation of these signs, and dangerous cults that build entire movements around them, there’s little wonder that people on the outside looking in at the church just keep walking by.
Please do not conflate spiritual laziness with a futurist view. It sounds a whole lot like you are following the bible in the flesh, not the Lord in the spirit, and are doing a gedanken experiment.
That’s pretty much the climax of the resurrection, and it is a classic hope passage. In fact we are bidden to share the gospel as a meek explanation of the hope that is within us. Thunderous question begging (not from you, but from some others) doesn’t qualify.
Missing future prophecy due to imagined near term fulfilment is missing the forest for not even the trees, but for the moss on the trees.
It’s also noteworthy that sometimes large future events have small contemporary pre-echos. The limited resuscitations of the dead when Christ died on the cross are one such pre-echo.
At some point it will be all behind us and we will be in glory, but right now we need to keep faithful in the perspective we have.
The poem about the blind men and the elephant might have been written with an overall skeptic or universalist point of view, but it humorously also illustrates how specialists in this, or that, or the other Christian viewpoint will get into wrangles. Throw in a little pride, and it becomes mutual condemnation. Sometimes the answer really is both-and.
And our dear fishy friend doesn’t speak for me when he implies that a futurist view must beget spiritual lassitude. No, I have already proven out a Christ who both follows the scriptures in their small and large sweep and can be counted on to keep promises. If the future was going to be devoid of special feature, Christ would simply be lying. However, I do not have the privilege of knowing where on an earthly calendar that will transpire. As a dear pastor I know explained, we are now 2000 years closer to it than when the scriptures were penned.
So you are using fleshly reason here?
It’s possible to over-analyze scripture and it will get you into an anxious dither every single time.
Scripture is nothing if it is not a book of introductions to the Lord. whereupon now the Lord comes as a spirit of explanation to the bible. Taking it at the level of Ye Olde Mysticke Booke does not cut it.
No, the failure to appeal to the flesh is not a reason to mutate an immutable gospel.
“And they overthrow the faith of some.”
What is really noticeable to me about “Stingray” is the name itself speaks of a menace among aquatic life (Christian fish watch out!), and the repetitive condemnatory prattle. Little or no reasoned “Well, this viewpoint is better than that one because.” I stress reasoned, because there isn’t much reason in it. Once one accepts the frankly supernatural, one can reason to things that one otherwise couldn’t.
Like all the UFO shots...always blurry...I’ll pass on that being authentic.
Just to remind folks what kind of strawman generator this menace-fish is.
Heck, anything can be photo shopped, but I found this particular video footage peculiar because it originally was not reported as the “pale horse of the apocalypse”.
Simply an anomaly in the video footage. Thought it interesting because of all the muzzies burnin, rioting, killing during the launch of Arab Spring and it has marched on with a vengeance. Right after what appeared to be the Pale (green) horse spirit lookin thing-ah-mah-jiggie.
Was kinda creepy, gotta admit. lol
“I don’t believe anyone in 70 AD saw any of these things happen. Therefore, “this generation” is not the generation from 70 AD.”
So what you’re really saying is, “My belief forms the basis for my understanding of the Bible.”
Seems to me you have it completely backwards.
If your understanding of the Bible allows you to believe in anachronisms or outright untruths, then I’d say it was a bad understanding.
I’ve had some belief-changing epiphanies while reading the Bible, especially when it differed from what I was taught in Baptist Sunday school. Those epiphanies always made more sense than the doctrines I was taught. None of the epiphanies were absurd on their face, or led to absurd conclusions.
Then the kings of the earth [land] and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Revelation 6:15-17
This hasn’t happened yet. The elite mentioned, even if you narrow the number of them down by interpreting the passage in the way you have, didn’t care about the wrath of the Lamb. Indeed, they didn’t relate Jesus to any sacrificial lamb; otherwise the Crucifixion may have never happened and there would have been no Great Commission - why spread the Gospel when everybody already knows it?
This denial of the significance of modern events, especially the founding of Israel in 1948, opens doors wide for atheists and anti-Semites to harass us and is leading to open persecution of Christians. I don’t know why anyone would want that.
You’re apparently trying to spread confusion; a sloppy kind of divide and conquer the word of God.
It doesn’t work here!
We read the word here.
Take the your destruction of the word somewhere that it is welcome.
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Zechariah 1: 7-17 8 During the night I had a vision—and there before me was a man riding a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.
Just to note that the 4 horseman are not a new aberration from God.
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