Mary Matters (Dr. Walter Martin on disbelief in the Mother of God)

Catholic Exchange ^ | JULY 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

[CynicalBear]

Please show where scripture uses the words “mother of God”.

[metmom]

So many think they will not have to face death because of their faith.

So?

[Grateful2God]

AMEN!

Sometimes we get so busy discussing, we forget what our priorities should be... : )

The Bible does say, "Pray one for another." God bless!

[metmom]

Jesus is both Heavenly Father's and Mary's son. He announces so himself on the cross.

Really? Exactly where does He announce that?

Chapter and verse?

[CynicalBear]

>>You have been posting that Mary is the mother of Jesus.<<

AKA the words the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to write. Are you saying that using the words the Holy Spirit used is wrong?

[CynicalBear]

>>Jesus, born on December 25, killed on good Friday and raised on easter Sunday is the counterfeit to the genuine.. that just isn’t truth.. it is false.<<

Why are you associating the Jesus described in Luke 1:31 with the false teaching of when He was born? The Catholic false teaching doesn't change the truth of scripture. It simply claims false things about Him. Their false teaching about Him doesn't change who He is any more than false teachings about Mary change who she really is.

>>Their Jesus is your Jesus.. their Mary is your Mary...<<

Why would you make a false statement like that? I no more believe the Catholic teaching about either Jesus or Mary than you do. Good grief man you're making no sense.

>>We can get a head start or we can stay in Babylon until those walls fall.. rahab is the best example of that.. but she wasnt fighting on her Babylon’s side when the walls fell..<<

You need to walk away from that Hebrew roots and sacred name cult dude. Seriously.

[CynicalBear]

>>Are you saying that Jesus was/is two persons in one?<<

I'm saying the Holy Spirit used the term "mother of Jesus" and that He used them for a reason. He did NOT use the term "mother of God" and I would suspect He did NOT for a reason. Now, if you want to add to or change the words of the Holy Spirit have at it. Do so at your own risk.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Jesus tells us to "listen to the church." And, "if he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

[CynicalBear]

>>So many think they will not have to face death because of their faith.<<

Nobody is saying what you or they will have to face. Here's what scripture says.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

See any in there who will not have to "face death"? Christ said the generation which sees the things leading up to that time will not pass. One of the markers was the gathering of Israel back to the land it was promised. That started in 1948. The gathering of the nations against Israel was another. See any of that happening currently?

Not one of us is promised that we will not pass before that day. I have not heard one person express the belief that they "will not have to face death" simply because they belief in the rapture as told in scripture.

[CynicalBear]

>>Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church<<

So says the Catholic Church.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So says God.

Hmmmm, who to believe? /sigh

[delchiante]

Those Hebrew roots folks had yesterday as their sabbath..

They use Rome too to set their worship.. just like catholics and protestants..and Jews.. and secular humanists..

So rome’s easter means nothing to you?

[ifinnegan]

Thanks for your polite and sincere post.

I am curious, do you think Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus?

[huldah1776]

The Thessalonians heard a rumor that the resurrection of the dead had already occurred so Paul wrote them again, calming them down.

2 Thessalonians 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

[DungeonMaster]

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ’s mother and you shall be saved” Says no verse in the bible.

[rwa265]

I have read different versions of the Bible side by side. In fact, there have been several occasions when I am preparing to do a reading from Scriptures where I have looked at different versions to get a better understanding of what I am going to read.

Ephesians 2:8 is a good example of where there is widespread agreement on what the Greek words mean. There are other verses, though, in which obscure words are being interpreted in a way that gives different understandings to the sense of the verse. 2 Corinthians 6:12 is a good example.

New International Version
We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us.

New Living Translation
There is no lack of love on our part, but you have withheld your love from us.

English Standard Version
You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections.

New American Standard Bible
You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own affections.

King James Bible
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are not limited by us, but you are limited by your own affections.

International Standard Version
We have not cut you off, but you have cut off your own feelings toward us.

NET Bible
Our affection for you is not restricted, but you are restricted in your affections for us.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your affections

GOD’S WORD® Translation
We haven’t cut you off. Your own emotions have cut you off from us.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

King James 2000 Bible
You are not constrained in us, but you are constrained in your own affections.

American King James Version
You are not straitened in us, but you are straitened in your own bowels.

American Standard Version
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own affections.

Douay-Rheims Bible
You are not straitened in us, but in your own bowels you are straitened.

Darby Bible Translation
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your affections

English Revised Version
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own affections.

Webster’s Bible Translation
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

Weymouth New Testament
There is no narrowness in our love to you: the narrowness is in your own feelings.

World English Bible
You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections

Young’s Literal Translation
ye are not straitened in us, and ye are straitened in your [own] bowels

Wycliffe
ye be not anguished in us, but ye be anguished in your inwardnesses.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Scripture is polyvalent, so both can be true, and in this case, both are true.

Catholics believe that the woman who gave birth to a Son who would rule with an iron scepter is a reference to Mary, and then in a secondary sense, to Israel.

On another occasion, Pope Benedict said:

This Woman represents Mary, the Mother of the Redeemer, but at the same time she also represents the whole Church, the People of God of all times, the Church which in all ages, with great suffering, brings forth Christ ever anew [General Audience, Aug. 23, 2006].

As Pope Benedict shows us, we don’t have to make a forced choice between the possible meanings of what the Woman represents.

In keeping with the richness of the way Revelation uses symbolism, to use Pope Benedict’s phrases, she can be Mary and “all Israel” and “the whole Church” in different ways.

Revelation 12: Who is the Woman Clothed with the Sun?

[metmom]

Jesus tells us to "listen to the church." And, "if he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

That's complete unadulterated nonsense and a complete misunderstanding of the words He used.

He NEVER spoke them as a command, as they are being presented.

The passage in question is this.....

Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

NOWHERE does Jesus command us to *listen to the church* and that "if he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

That is a gross misinterpretation of the passage, which clear meaning is here for everyone to see.

It's dealing with disputes among believers, not absolute authority given to *the Church* and a command for all believers to submit to it.

That has been explained to you time and again and yet you still persist in the same error.

[Grateful2God]

Thank you for the pictures, although the term, "Mariolatry" has negative connotations, derisive of our devotion to her. She is still the Mother of God and our Mother as well. She is the Daughter of God the Father; Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of Jesus! Hence, the Trinity being One God in Three Divine Persons, NOT FOUR, she is not God, but is the Mother of God! Divine mystery, but truth nonetheless.

She is often depicted with the Cross behind her: she stood helplessly and watched her Son suffer and die. When He was already dead, His Body was pierced through the Heart with the soldier's lance, and His Precious Blood and Water from His Side gushed forth. Jesus was dead. Who suffered the pain of seeing her Son's Body so mutilated? The Prophecy of Simeon was fulfilled. Yet she had to go on, to prepare the Body of Jesus her Son for burial, and watch as the stone was rolled in place. For the first time in 33 years, her Son was not with her, not because He was away preaching, but because He had been tortured, murdered, and His dead Body pierced. If anyone has the right to be depicted next to her Son, it is she. And yes, we interpret as Catholics, that Jesus entrusting her to John, and, in His last hours of life referring to her as Woman, "behold thy son" that she was given all He had: the souls redeemed by His Passion and Death, entrusted to the Woman to whom God had entrusted His Only-Begotten Son. Mary is our mother as well. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day; until then, His Holy Mother grieved. She who had not the concupiscence of sin within her, suffered all these things in innocence.

Who, on Christ's dear mother gazing,

in her trouble so amazing,

born of woman, would not weep?

Who, on Christ's dear Mother thinking,

such a cup of sorrow drinking,

would not share her sorrows deep?

At The Cross, Her Station Keeping

[metmom]

OK. So what are the different meanings then in the passage you chose.

Show us all the varying interpretations (not just translations of the words) and the problems with them.

[DungeonMaster]

“No man can come to me unless he comes through my mother”. is not what John 6:44 says.