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Mary Matters (Dr. Walter Martin on disbelief in the Mother of God)
Catholic Exchange ^ | JULY 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 01/24/2015 3:23:43 PM PST by NYer

In my new book, Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines, , I spend most of its pages in classic apologetic defense of Mary as Mother of God, defending her immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven, her Queenship, and her role in God’s plan of salvation as Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. But perhaps my most important contributions in the book may well be how I demonstrate each of these doctrines to be crucial for our spiritual lives and even our salvation.

And I should note that this applies to all of the Marian doctrines. Not only Protestants, but many Catholics will be surprised to see how the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, for example, is crucial for all Christians to understand lest they misapprehend the truth concerning the sacred, marriage, sacraments, the consecrated life, and more.

I won’t attempt to re-produce the entire book in this post, but I will choose one example among examples I use to demonstrate why Mary as Mother of God not only matters, but how denying this dogma of the Faith can end in the loss of understanding of “the one true God and Jesus Christ whom [God] has sent” (John 17:3). It doesn’t get any more serious than that!  

In my book, I use the teaching of the late, well-known, and beloved Protestant Apologist, Dr. Walter Martin, as one of my examples. In his classic apologetics work, Kingdom of the Cults, Dr. Martin, gives us keen insight into why the dogma of the Theotokos (“God-bearer,” a synonym with “Mother of God”) is such a “big deal.” But first some background information.

 Truth and Consequences

It is very easy to state what it is that you don’t believe. That has been the history of Protestantism. Protestantism itself began as a… you guessed it… “protest.” “We are against this, this, this, and this.” It was a “protest” against Catholicism. However, the movement could not continue to exist as a protestant against something. It had to stand for something. And that is when the trouble began. When groups of non-infallible men attempted to agree, the result ended up being the thousands of Protestant sects we see today.

Dr. Walter Martin was a good Protestant. He certainly and boldly proclaimed, “I do not believe Mary is the Mother of God.” That’s fine and good. The hard part came when he had to build a theology congruent with his denial. With Dr. Martin, it is difficult to know for sure whether his bad Christology came before or after his bad Mariology—I argue it was probably bad Christology that came first—but let’s just say for now that in the process of theologizing about both Jesus and Mary, he ended up claiming Mary was “the mother of Jesus’ body,” and not the Mother of God. He claimed Mary “gave Jesus his human nature alone,” so that we cannot say she is the Mother of God; she is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ.

This radical division of humanity and divinity manifests itself in various ways in Dr. Martin’s theology. He claimed, for example, that “sonship” in Christ has nothing at all to do with God in his eternal relations within the Blessed Trinity. In Martin’s Christology, divinity and humanity are so sharply divided that he concluded “eternal sonship” to be an unbiblical Catholic invention. On page 103 of his 1977 edition of The Kingdom of the Cults, he wrote:

[T]here cannot be any such thing as eternal Sonship, for there is a logical contradiction of terminology due to the fact that the word “Son” predicates time and the involvement of creativity. Christ, the Scripture tells us, as the Logos, is timeless, “…the Word was in the beginning” not the Son!

From Martin’s perspective then, Mary as “Mother of God” is a non-starter. If “Son of God” refers to Christ as the eternal son, then there would be no denying that Mary is the mother of the Son of God, who is God; hence, Mother of God would be an inescapable conclusion. But if sonship only applies to “time and creativity,” then references to Mary’s “son” would not refer to divinity at all.

But there is just a little problem here. Beyond the fact that you don’t even need the term “Son” at all to determine Mary is the Mother God because John 1:14 tells us “the Word was made flesh,” and John 1:1 tells us “the Word was God;” thus, Mary is the mother of the Word and so she is the Mother of God anyway, the sad fact is that in the process of Martin’s theologizing he ended up losing the real Jesus. Notice, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is no longer the Eternal Son! And it gets worse from here, if that is possible! Martin would go on:

The term “Son” itself is a functional term, as is the term “Father” and has no meaning apart from time. The term “Father” incidentally never carries the descriptive adjective “eternal” in Scripture; as a matter of fact, only the Spirit is called eternal (“the eternal Spirit”—Hebrews 9:14), emphasizing the fact that the words Father and Son are purely functional as previously stated.

It would be difficult to overstate the importance of what we are saying here. Jesus revealed to us the essential truth that God exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his inner life. For Martin, God would be father by analogy in relation to the humanity of Christ, but not in the eternal divine relations; hence, he is not the eternal Father. So, not only did Dr. Martin end up losing Jesus, the eternal Son; he lost the Father as well! This compels us to ask the question: Who then is God, the Blessed Trinity, in eternity, according to Dr. Walter Martin and all those who agree with his theology? He is not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He must be the eternal … Blahthe Word, and the Holy Spirit (Martin did teach Christ to be the Eternal Word, just not the Eternal Son). He would become a father by analogy when he created the universe and again by analogy at the incarnation of the Word and through the adoption of all Christians as “sons of God.” But he would not be the eternal Father. The metaphysical problems begin here and continue to eternity… literally. Let us now summarize Dr. Martin’s teaching and some of the problems it presents:

1. Fatherhood and Sonship would not be intrinsic to God. The Catholic Church understands that an essential aspect of Christ’s mission was to reveal God to us as he is in his inner life as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Jews already understood God to be father by analogy, but they had no knowledge of God as eternal Father in relation to the Eternal Son. In Jesus’ great high priestly prayer in John 17, he declared his Father was Father “before the world was made” and thus, to quote CCC 239, in “an unheard-of sense.” In fact, Christ revealed God’s name as Father. Names in Hebrew culture reveal something about the character of the one named. Thus, he reveals God to be Father, not just that he is like a father. God never becomes Father; he is the eternal Father

2. If Sonship applies only to humanity and time, the “the Son” would also be extrinsic, or outside, if you will, of the Second Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity. Thus, as much as he would have denied it, Dr. Martin effectively creates two persons to represent Christ—one divine and one human. This theology leads to the logical conclusion that the person who died on the cross 2,000 years ago would have been merely a man. If that were so, he would have no power to save us. Scripture reveals Christ as the savior, not merely a delegate of God the savior. He was fully man in order to make fitting atonement for us. He was fully God in order to have the power to save us.

3. This theology completely reduces the revelation of God in the New Covenant that separates Christianity from all religions of the world. Jesus revealed God as he is from all eternity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Dr. Martin reduces this to mere function. Thus, “Father” does not tell us who God is, only what God does. Radical feminists do something similar when they refuse to acknowledge God as “Father.” God becomes reduced to that which he does as “Creator, Redeeemer, and Sanctifier” and int he process where is a truly tragic loss of the knowledge of who God is. In the case of Dr. Walter Martin, it was bad theology that lead to a similar loss.

4. There is a basic metaphysical principle found, for example, in Malachi 3:6, that comes into play here as well: “For I the Lord do not change.” In defense of Dr. Martin, he did seem to realize that one cannot posit change in the divine persons. As stated above, “fatherhood” and “sonship” wold not relate to divinity at all in his way of thinking. Thus, he became a proper Nestorian (though he would never have admitted that) that divides Christ into two persons. And that is bad enough. However, one must be very careful here because when one posits the first person of the Blessed Trinity became the Father, and the second person of the Blessed Trinity became the Son, it becomes very easy to slip into another heresy that would admit change into the divine persons. Later in Behold Your Mother, I employ the case of a modern Protestant apologist who regrettably takes that next step. But you’ll have to get the book to read about that one.

The bottom line here is this: It appears Dr. Walter Martin’s bad Christology led to a bad Mariology. But I argue in Behold Your Mother that if he would have understood Mary as Theotokos, it would have been impossible for him to lose his Christological bearings. The moment the thought of sonship as only applying to humanity in Christ would have arisen, a Catholic Dr. Walter Martin would have known that Mary is Mother of God. He would have lost neither the eternal Son nor the eternal Father because Theotokos would have guarded him from error. The prophetic words of Lumen Gentium 65 immediately come to mind: “Mary… unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith.” A true Mariology serves as a guarantor against bad Christology.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; christology; mariandoctrine; motherofgod; theology; virginmary
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To: rwa265
Having said that, I became involved in this discussion because I could not understand how someone could believe that Mary is the mother of Jesus without also being the mother of God. I think I do now but by all means correct me if I am wrong. I am not adverse to admitting that others may have a better theory.

Is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

IOW, is God the Trinity?

We'll start there.

1,101 posted on 01/27/2015 12:55:13 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: editor-surveyor
Yehova’s year depends only on his barley, and can never be subservient to the sun.

Now I am REALLY confused!

1,102 posted on 01/27/2015 12:55:25 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: omegatoo
So you believe that every word that God ever said is in the bible? That no word ever left God's mouth was not written?

Nope...But the correct gospel is in the bible and the correct doctrines are in the bible...If your tradition fall outside of those, your traditions are false...

p.s. Where in scripture does it say only to rely on scripture? And how does scripture tell us to resolve contradictions in scripture?

All doctrines pertaining to eternal life for the Christian are in the written scriptures...

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

That eliminates all of the Traditions of the Catholic religion...

1,103 posted on 01/27/2015 12:55:29 PM PST by Iscool
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To: metmom
There is NOTHING that galls a Catholic more than suggesting that Mary either had a sin nature, like the rest of us, or that she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ.

And yet neither of those points have anything to do with salvation...

1,104 posted on 01/27/2015 12:56:17 PM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: terycarl
Me too, and I follow the church that He founded and the church which compiled and preserved that book...

Preserved?

Then why didn't you guys 'preserve' your ECFs writings in it; IF they were SO essential?

1,105 posted on 01/27/2015 12:56:30 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

ouch.....


1,106 posted on 01/27/2015 12:57:01 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: ADSUM
>>There are numerous letters from early Christians<<

There are numerous statements from God -"thou shalt not eat the blood".

1,107 posted on 01/27/2015 12:57:50 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: delchiante; editor-surveyor
Thanks, fellas; for this little food fight between yourselves.

We P's and C's will now take a much needed rest and watch you two slug it out...

1,108 posted on 01/27/2015 12:58:07 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
never mind what the Bible says...the Protestants get to make up their own interpretations...

While we Catholics have to have a vision or two to explain to us what to do.

--Catholic_Wannabe_)Dude(Though getting to be less and less wannabe...)

1,109 posted on 01/27/2015 1:00:09 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delchiante

not moed -— MOAB!!!

http://dirtshirt.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=49_66&product_id=256


1,110 posted on 01/27/2015 1:02:02 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
like "THIS IS MY BODY" for example....very difficult to understand!

You vipers!

Get bit!

1,111 posted on 01/27/2015 1:02:41 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ADSUM
Because God determined it to be so.

Where? I see where God determined that the mother of the Messiah be a virgin, but nowhere is there any reference to her being or needing to be sinless.

1,112 posted on 01/27/2015 1:03:20 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: terycarl
Good grief, to be united in the Catholic religion doesn't mean that we all have to agree with everything the Pope says in daily conversation....sheesh

AHhhh...

But you DO get to JUDGE him!!

1,113 posted on 01/27/2015 1:03:27 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
Catholics don't hate protestantiam, they hate the fact that someone is perverting the Christian church which they have guided and protected for 2,015 years....

...and ELECTED those wonderful EVIL popes to head up at times.

1,114 posted on 01/27/2015 1:04:51 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CA Conservative
And yet neither of those points have anything to do with salvation...

Unless you are a Catholic, then since its in the CCC, its mandatory for salvation.

But according to Scripture, not a word about it.

1,115 posted on 01/27/2015 1:05:27 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: terycarl
Catholics don't hate protestantiam,

You must; or else you'd tell us what we LACK that Catholicism provides.

1,116 posted on 01/27/2015 1:05:48 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: delchiante
Was Paul sending mixed messages? There are some that believe that.. I do not

You wannabe Jews can argue over your days and dates and years and barley and evening and morning all you want.

What about us GENTILES??


Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem
 1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

 16 “‘After this I will return
   and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
   and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
   even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]
 18 things known from long ago.[c]

 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
 22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

   Farewell.

 30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas
 36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38 but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39 They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41 He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
1,117 posted on 01/27/2015 1:08:44 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alex Murphy

But would Jesus have eaten the LOBSTER pizza?


1,118 posted on 01/27/2015 1:09:40 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl

No matter what I think about your chosen religion; that right there is FUNNY!!!


1,119 posted on 01/27/2015 1:10:38 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
The statement, "Someone without sin has no need of a savior" is a gratuitous assumption.

No, it's a fact. Adam and Eve did not need a savior until they sinned.

People who do no sin, do not need a savior.

The flaw in your argument is that you are ignoring the fact that when Adam and Eve were created, NO ONE had sinned.

Mary was conceived AFTER Adam and Eve had sinned. In the normal course of things, she would have been conceived without grace--i.e., with Original Sin--and would subsequently have sinned personally.

Because she was conceived AFTER the sin of Adam, Mary needed Jesus Christ as her savior in order to preserve her from Original Sin.

1,120 posted on 01/27/2015 1:14:27 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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