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To: metmom

(from the post) “If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.”

**Even Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Justification, imputed righteousness, occurred long before the Law was given.**

That happened long before the Law was given alright. Abraham had done a LOT of calorie burning believing before Gen. 15:6. You do realize that God’s words from Gen. 15:6 are a ‘ways down the road’ from Ur of the Chaldees?

By that time Abraham, under God’s command, had traveled at least 400 miles the old fashioned way (with a complicated entourage, and tasks to perform daily. Put up tent. make fire. Take down tent. Put out fire. etc.).

Arriving in Bethel, he built an altar (without going to Menards), which wasn’t just to look at.

Then, AFTER Gen. 15:6, is verses 7-11 where Abraham is again promised the land, but NOT without following MORE commands (more work) for Abraham.

But, the ‘saved without works’ line is built upon the same erroneous teaching as the ‘Abraham believed and did nothing’ to receive the promise, line of thought.

That method is to ignore the scriptures that tell the WHOLE story. People will pull one verse from the story of the Paul, Silas, and the jailor, and avoid the following verses that tell of the instruction in the Word, and the baptisms that took place.

Not only is Acts loaded with inconvenient truth for those that think one doesn’t move a muscle to be saved, it is the ONLY book that SHOWS souls going through the rebirth process.

People use the thief on the cross for salvation doctrine, ignoring the words in Hebrews 9:16-18 that tells us that “a testament is of force after men are dead”.

The thief was not under the Lord’s rebirth commands, for he was not dead yet.

Acts 2:38 is the completely spelled out command from God on how to be born again. It’s the new and living way.


125 posted on 01/24/2015 1:41:45 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: Zuriel; metmom; All
Abraham had done a LOT of calorie burning believing before Gen. 15:6.

Yet neither Paul nor God regard any of that "calorie burning," otherwise it would have said that Abraham was justified by his works, and thus merited his justification. Without any confusion, it says that his faith was imputed onto him for righteousness specifically in the absence of works, and not anything else.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Rom 4:4-7)

It says several times: if it is of works, then it is of merit, and if by merit, it is not by grace. Again, salvation "without" works. Again, salvation for those who "worketh not," but believe. Clearly Paul is emphasizing that salvation is the gift of God without regard for works of righteousness.

You also put forward the old strawman:

But, the ‘saved without works’ line is built upon the same erroneous teaching as the ‘Abraham believed and did nothing’ to receive the promise, line of thought.

It suggests that we are antinomians and believe that we "do nothing" but have faith, but we teach, with the full support of the scripture and of the church fathers, that good works are the result of God's working in us, and are not the cause of salvation, otherwise it contradicts the scripture which says:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Thus those whom God saves do good works, and if any do not do them, then they are damned, because all those saved by Christ are also ordained to produce fruit. Some beautiful quotes from Augustine to top it all off on the subject:

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)

"Can you say, 'We will first walk in His righteousness, and will observe His judgments, and will act in a worthy way, so that He will give His grace to us'? But what good would you evil people do? And how would you do those good things, unless you were yourselves good? But Who causes people to be good? Only He Who said, 'And I will visit them to make them good,' and, 'I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them'(Ezek.36:27). Are you asleep? Can't you hear Him saying, 'I will cause you to walk, I will make you to observe,' lastly,'I will make you to do'? Really, are you still puffing yourselves up? We walk, true enough, and we observe, and we do; but it is God Who He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy going before us." Augustine - Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 4:15

132 posted on 01/24/2015 2:09:06 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Zuriel; metmom

What was the purpose of the law?


148 posted on 01/24/2015 3:31:23 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Ga 4:16)
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