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To: Zuriel; metmom; All
Abraham had done a LOT of calorie burning believing before Gen. 15:6.

Yet neither Paul nor God regard any of that "calorie burning," otherwise it would have said that Abraham was justified by his works, and thus merited his justification. Without any confusion, it says that his faith was imputed onto him for righteousness specifically in the absence of works, and not anything else.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." (Rom 4:4-7)

It says several times: if it is of works, then it is of merit, and if by merit, it is not by grace. Again, salvation "without" works. Again, salvation for those who "worketh not," but believe. Clearly Paul is emphasizing that salvation is the gift of God without regard for works of righteousness.

You also put forward the old strawman:

But, the ‘saved without works’ line is built upon the same erroneous teaching as the ‘Abraham believed and did nothing’ to receive the promise, line of thought.

It suggests that we are antinomians and believe that we "do nothing" but have faith, but we teach, with the full support of the scripture and of the church fathers, that good works are the result of God's working in us, and are not the cause of salvation, otherwise it contradicts the scripture which says:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Thus those whom God saves do good works, and if any do not do them, then they are damned, because all those saved by Christ are also ordained to produce fruit. Some beautiful quotes from Augustine to top it all off on the subject:

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)

"Can you say, 'We will first walk in His righteousness, and will observe His judgments, and will act in a worthy way, so that He will give His grace to us'? But what good would you evil people do? And how would you do those good things, unless you were yourselves good? But Who causes people to be good? Only He Who said, 'And I will visit them to make them good,' and, 'I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them'(Ezek.36:27). Are you asleep? Can't you hear Him saying, 'I will cause you to walk, I will make you to observe,' lastly,'I will make you to do'? Really, are you still puffing yourselves up? We walk, true enough, and we observe, and we do; but it is God Who He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy going before us." Augustine - Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 4:15

132 posted on 01/24/2015 2:09:06 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

**Yet neither Paul nor God regard any of that “calorie burning,” otherwise it would have said that Abraham was justified by his works, and thus merited his justification.**

HIS works? Leaving Ur was not his idea. Building altars was not his idea. AFTER Gen.15:6, Abraham offered a sacrifice (which wasn’t his idea), because God commanded it in order for him to receive the promise.

Now, if you are only a spirit being, then the life in the flesh does not apply to you.

We have been given these sinful bodies to dwell in, and God, by his ordinances, tells us how we are to dwell in them, and how we are delivered from their curse.

If you are intent on predestination; that Abraham was going to obey God from the womb, then why was he disobedient at times, going to Egypt, lying about his wife being his wife?

Are our individual sins predestined as well? Are you predestined to deny Acts 2:38 as God’s instruction for rebirth? Do you only follow it’s instruction if you feel that God has imputed that desire in you? Peter orders that EVERY ONE is to follow it/obey it.

**Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.**

I can guarantee you that the WORKS that Rom. 4:4 refers to is NOT Acts 2:38. For Paul is writing to those that have obeyed Acts 2:38, noting that in the beginning of the epistle he greets those in Rome as ‘saints’. He reminds them in places like Rom. 6:17 about their conversion:

“But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”

Are you rejecting God’s grace by dismissing Acts 2:38? It is also God’s grace that he sends preachers to preach the gospel, and instruct souls on how to be born again.

I have read little of Augustine, so I am not aware of his teaching on Acts 2:38. Maybe you know where that might be found.


160 posted on 01/24/2015 4:04:30 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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