Posted on 01/24/2015 8:33:46 AM PST by RnMomof7
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.The quotes from the Church Fathers have to be interpreted in light of what Scripture teaches.But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
Yes, we are saved by grace through faith/works. Faith and works, or charity, are two sides of the same coin.
As Scripture tells us, "Faith without works is dead."
Take your ritualistic legalism back to the magical mystery tour of Catholicism.
Scare much? I’m not Catholic. I believe the Bible, KJV, to be the Word of God. It’s just that I don’t follow Christian philosophers, but only the Word of God.
You’re wrong. Your views are wrong and aren’t supported in the Bible. The True Church must have the same organization and ordinances as the church Christ set up.
That is all.
Good day, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ
“Not if he didn’t give the credit to Jesus I wouldn’t. “
Yes, you would - if you lived centuries before Jesus walked the earth.
“But if you really believe demons respond to bad smells, you go ahead and try that next time you run into one of those things.”
Bud, they respond to holy water - they hate it. They respond to the Eucharist - they hate it. They’re a lot like Protestant anti-Catholics.
God chose to heal people with a graven image of a snake. God does what He wills. You deny that. I never will.
“Murder is the word you are looking for.”
Abortion. That is the word. When you find it in the Bible let me know.
CLEMENT OF ROME________________________________________Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.
The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, TO RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORK."
Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us.
IGNATIUS
Seeing then, all things have an end, there is set before us life upon our observance of God's precepts, but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place,
JUSTIN MARTYR
We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man's actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed.
Since those who did that which is universally, naturally, and eternally good are pleasing to God, they shall be saved through this Christ in the resurrection equally with those righteous men who were before them, namely Noah, and Enoch, and Jacob, and who have known this Christ, Son of God.
And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.
Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire. but would by all means restrain himself and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments
CYPRIAN
The Lord denounces [Christian evildoers], and says, 'Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and in Your name have cast out devils, and in Your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' [Matt. 7:21-23]. There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey His precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward
You therefore, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself of Christ gold tried by fire; that you may be pure gold, with your filth burnt out as if by fire, if you are purged by almsgiving and righteous works. Buy for yourself white raiment, that you who had been naked according to Adam, and were before frightful and unseemly, may be clothed with the white garment of Christ. And you who are a wealthy and rich matron in Christ's Church, anoint your eyes, not with the collyrium of the devil, but with Christ's eye-salve, that you may be able to attain to see God, by deserving well of God, both by good works and character
"As water extinguisheth fire, so almsgiving quencheth sin." (Sirach; 3:30) (Cyprian quotes from the Deuterocanonicals, reflecting the fact that these books rejected by Protestants were seen as Scripture)Here also it is shown and proved, that as in the layer of saving water the fire of Gehenna is extinguished, so by almsgiving and works of righteousness the flame of sins is subdued.
The remedies for propitiating God are given in the words of God Himself; the divine instructions have taught what sinners ought to do, that by works of righteousness God is satisfied, that with the deserts of mercy sins are cleansed.
"Prayer is good, with fasting and alms; because alms doth deliver from death, and it purgeth away sins."(Tobit 12:8, 9) (Cyprian quotes from a Deuterocanonical book as Scripture again) He shows that our prayers and fastings are of less avail, unless they are aided by almsgiving; that entreaties alone are of little force to obtain what they seek, unless they be made sufficient by the addition of deeds and good works
ATHANASIUS
He is to come, no more to suffer, but thenceforth to render to all the fruit of his own cross, that is, the resurrection and incorruption; and no longer to be judged, but to judge all, by what each has done in the body, whether good or evil; where there is laid up for the good the kingdom of heaven, but for them that have done evil everlasting fire and outer darkness.
For according to the blessed Paul: "We must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that each one may receive according as he hath done in the body whether it be good or bad."
BASIL
Eternal rest awaits those who have struggled through the present life observant of the laws, not as payment owed for their works, but bestowed as a gift of the munificent God on those who have hoped in him.
AMBROSE
If thou clothe the naked, thou clothest thyself with righteousness; if thou bring the stranger under thy roof, if thou support the needy, he procures for thee the friendship of the saints and eternal habitations. That is no small recompense. Thou sowest earthly things and receivest heavenly... Not again is nay one more blessed than he who is sensible to the needs of the poor, and the hardships of the weak and helpless. In the day of judgment he will receive salvation from the Lord.
He calls each blessed both him whose sins are remitted by the font, and him whose sin is covered by good works. For he who repents ought not only to wash away his sin by his tears, but also to cover and hide his former transgressions by amended deeds, that sin may not be imputed to him. Let us, then, cover our falls by our subsequent acts; let us purify ourselves by tears, that the Lord our God may hear us when we lament, as He heard Ephraim when weeping, as it is written: "I have surely heard Ephraim weeping." (Jer. 31:18) And He expressly repeats the very words of Ephraim: "Thou hast chastised me and I was chastised, like a calf I was not trained (Jer. 31:18)."
JEROME
although even thus there is not sure and safe possession . For the lion lurks in ambush to slay the innocent. Sirach 37:5 "Potters' vessels are proved by the furnace, and just men by the trial of tribulation." And in another place it is written: Sirach 2:1 "My son, when thou comest to serve the Lord, prepare thyself for temptation." Again, the same James says: "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. For if any one is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." It was useless to warn them to add works to faith, if they could not sin after baptism.
+++ LETTER OF JAMES +++What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[b] is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
1But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Your frustration at not being able to support your contentions with scripture acknowledged.
Wow! You are clairvoyant also? Knowing what I would do ey? And don't change the question and the answer to it. Here's your question again.
>>If an angel of the Lord told me to, I would. You probably would do no differently.<<
Do you live "centuries before Christ? I surely don't. You said you would. I said I would not without testing the spirit to see if it was from God.
**Once you reply, if ever, we can go on to the necessity of baptism for salvation using just the Bible.**
You’re talking to the wall.
I’m ‘sola scriptura’, and I’ve taken those that think they are sola scriptura to task on water baptism. They claim to believe it all, but that baptism comes after salvation, thereby in their ignorance, they have unwittingly reworded scripture, such as Mark 16:16 to say this instead:
“He that is saved, shall believe and should be baptized (sprinkled, but not necessary)..” (the Calvinists)
“He that believeth is saved, and then should be baptized (sprinkled or immersion, but not necessary)..”. (many more of the Prods)
This is their rewording of Acts 2:38:
“He that is saved will repent and believe (the Spirit given by that point), and should be baptized..”. (Calvinists. They believe the Spirit is given at the moment the individual says that they believe in Jesus, which can preceed repentance, according to their predestination interpretations).
“He that repents, believes (receives the Spirit at this point), is saved, and should be baptized..”. (many more of the Prods)
But, to my knowledge, the EO, RCC, and the bulk of the Prods do not baptize in the name of Jesus, making the command void of the only name that can save.
Another part of the scripture that the Calvinists disregard:
Jesus Christ taught about the new birth, saying that when one receives the Spirit, there is a confirming sound: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE..” (EVERYONE! Not just those on Pentecost) “..that is BORN of the SPIRIT”. John 3:8
The bulk of the prods run to the epistles to find their instruction for salvation, ignoring the introductions of those epistles, which salute the ‘saints’ that they were written to. This is the context: Those folks have already obeyed (believed) Acts 2:38.
“Wow! You are clairvoyant also?”
No more than you. You said you wouldn’t do anything and linked that to a knowledge of Jesus, but Jesus hadn’t come yet so it wasn’t even a logical comment on your part.
“Knowing what I would do ey?”
Well, let’s test that. It’s 600 BC, an angel of the Lord appears to you and tells you to do something. And you say you would say no because “he didn’t give the credit to Jesus”?
“And don’t change the question and the answer to it. Here’s your question again.”
I changed NOTHING. We were talking about Tobit OR DID THAT JUST SLIP YOUR MIND EVER SO CONVENIENTLY NOW?
“Do you live “centuries before Christ?”
Tobit did.
“I surely don’t.”
Tobit did - and I seriously doubt you FORGOT that that was who we were talking about.
“You said you would.”
Absolutely - in Tobit’s time or now. If an angel of the Lord appeared to me, I would be obedient.
“I said I would not without testing the spirit to see if it was from God.”
No, you said this:
“Not if he didn’t Not if he didn’t give the credit to Jesus I wouldn’t. “Test the spirits whether they be of God” and all that.
Thus, your “test” is whether or not he “give[s] the credit to Jesus”. Yet, in Acts 12 we see an angel appears to Peter in prison and tells him to get up, get dressed and put his sandals on, and follow him out of the prison. Never once does the angel any ANYTHING about Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. So, you would have failed the angel on your “test” and stayed in prison and died if you were Peter, right? Way to go! Notice what it says in Acts 12:11:
11 And Peter came to himself, and said, “Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting.”
So Peter comes to himself and realizes that it was most definitely an Angel of the Lord BECAUSE IT WORKED in rescuing him. He had no other test than that for that angel. I trust Peter’s reasoning a lot more than yours.
When an angel appears to Philip in Acts 8, he says NOTHING about giving credit to Jesus. Philip obeys him without question.
In Acts 10, an angel appears to Cornelius and says EXACTLY NOTHING about giving credit to Jesus. Cornelius obeys him without question.
I'll let you run down that fantasy rabbit trail by yourself. Placate you ego as you wish.
>>Never once does the angel any ANYTHING about Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. So, you would have failed the angel on your “test” and stayed in prison and died if you were Peter, right?<<
Peter and all of the New Testament believers had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment. Isn't that something Catholics deny for anyone other then their "magisterium?. Of course Peter knew where the angel was from.
“I’ll let you run down that fantasy rabbit trail by yourself. Placate you ego as you wish.”
Of course you’ll say that: Because if you actually dealt with it you would have to admit I was right all along. Tobit lived before Christ walked the earth.
“Peter and all of the New Testament believers had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment.”
But you don’t? After all if you’re saying you would put an angel to a “test” and yet the Apostles didn’t because they “had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment”, then you must not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give you discernment. Once again we see the deficiencies of the Protestant mindset.
“Isn’t that something Catholics deny for anyone other then their “magisterium?.”
Nope. But you just denied it to yourself by using your own invented out of thin air “test” which denies your have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Need another shovel to dig your logic hole deeper?
“Of course Peter knew where the angel was from.”
Not until he came to himself - as the text says. He knew it by the successful action of the angel.
Yep, sure have! Several of 'em on a pretty regular basis but I don't expect you to notice. It seems only the opposition ever appears on your radar.
Are you aware that I have caught Protestant anti-Catholics here LYING about where they got things, how they altered quotes, etc.? Check my profile page.
I read it. If that's all you got, you only further your reputation as a nitpicking, grammar-nazi wannabe who says everyone is wrong but himself.
The Israelites during the Old Testement had a directive to know who was from God and who wasn't.
Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Did this so called angel say that? No he didn't. That so called angel said "'I am one of your brother Israelites; I have come to these parts to look for work.". An angel came to look for work? Tobias actually told him he would pay him for his time. The so called angel said "I am Azarias, son of the great Ananias, one of your kinsmen." Not once did that so called angel claim to be from God or make the statement "thus saith God" nor did he say he was from God. That all makes him a liar about being an angel.
The Israelites were warned about them.
Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Believe in that false angel and that Tobit is scripture if you want but it's obviously not inspired by God.
I can appreciate that. Take care.
Very good and thanks for your insights and comments.
“Yep, sure have! Several of ‘em on a pretty regular basis but I don’t expect you to notice.”
Well, here’s the problem: 1) I have no immediate reason to believe you, 2) I rarely post to my fellow Catholics within a thread and rarely get involved in their conversations for any length of time so I don’t read their posts within a thread since I’m spending my time reading posts written to me, 3) I know of no example of a Catholic outright lying about such a thing - but I have caught anti-Catholics lying about it on more than one occasion, 4) go ahead and call them on it. I don’t care if you do. If a Catholic is wrong, he is wrong. I have corrected Catholics when I saw something they posted to be wrong, but that is usually something I stumbled across. It’s rarely posted to me. Zionist Conspirator gets angry at me for not going after every Catholic theological-evolutionist here. I never know what he is talking about because I didn’t see the threads he is wringing his hands over! I read a lot (just in the last month I purchased 11 books - and I’m trying to cut back in 2015 - and two of those are study Bibles that are going to take me a while to get through). So, no, I don’t read every post by everyone at FR. I have no time for it.
“It seems only the opposition ever appears on your radar.”
Since I am posting to them and them to me, that would make sense would it not?
“I read it. If that’s all you got, you only further your reputation as a nitpicking, grammar-nazi wannabe who says everyone is wrong but himself.”
No. That’s all I saved. I wished I saved more. You’ve done this before - even if you don’t remember it. It’s not about “nitpicking” or “grammar”. If a man who attacks the Catholic faith repeatedly, essentially claiming his invented sect must be better because Protestantism’s interpretation of the Bible is better and purer, shows himself to be dishonest even after GETTING CAUGHT - and only the Protestant anti-Catholics are doing this here - that says a lot about not only them, but their sect and Protestantism.
When I first started getting involved in things online I assumed that anti-Catholics were anti-Catholic out of ignorance. And yes that was sometimes true. But there are also some anti-Catholics who are just plain dishonest. I have yet to come across Catholics doing online apologetics who are dishonest. They might exist, but I certainly have not run into them here at FR. Only the anti-Catholics seem to have this problem with honesty. Why is that?
Are you aware that you are voicing an incorrect definition of sola Scriptura? No one claims EVERYTHING is in the Bible but that the Bible - as the ONLY Divinely-inspired writings we have - is sufficient to know the plan of salvation and contains the basis of all that is required to be believed in order to live a holy, righteous and honorable life. The Bible remains THE standard authority by which the rule of the Christian faith must be measured.
Take the anointing of the sick "ordinance/ritual" you mentioned. We know from Scripture that it IS something God desires we do else it wouldn't say we CAN do it. Is it your contention that unless we do it exactly the way your church does it, God won't honor it? God won't heal anyone unless it's done the "right" way with the "right" prayers by the "right" people? I don't think so. James was writing this to believers to encourage them to trust in God for healing and forgiveness - NOT so that the precise ritual would be spelled out.
You say the Bible is "insufficient" without a human revelator? Just what is it you think the Holy Spirit does? Has God gifted us with other believers to help, teach, explain, interpret and reveal God's word to us? Yes, He has. But, it is always the Holy Spirit behind it and the sacred Scriptures - which are able to make us wise unto salvation - remain the authority so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. The "church" is to be in submission to the Scriptures - not the other way around.
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