When Jesus says I will lose none of them
, it seems pretty clear to me.
When Jesus says no one will snatch them out of my hand
it seems pretty clear to me.
John 10:28 is clearly about the flock of sheep
that had been given him; just a few verses earlier [in Jn 10:16] he mentions sheep not of this pen
(which is/are/were the gentiles) — which were not brought in until after his resurrection and plainly weren't the Twelve.
Likewise, John 10:36 is not strictly about the Twelve either, for a single verse before (Jn 10:35), Jesus says: I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
It seems to me that you are calling Jesus a liar when you reject these, claiming that Yeshua said only that he lost none of those given him. (the core disciples, he actually ‘lost’ thousands as noted in John’s gospel)
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>> “When Jesus says I will lose none of them, it seems pretty clear to me.” <<
But, as I have noted, he didn’t say that.
>> “When Jesus says no one will snatch them out of my hand it seems pretty clear to me.” <<
But who can be “in his hand” if they depart of their own volition?
As I noted in my previous post, the interpretations that you prefer place contradictions in the word.
More study needed.
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He is clearly speaking of his core disciples:
John 17:
[12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[13] And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 18:
[8] Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
[9] That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
It couldn't possibly be clearer that he is speaking of the eleven.