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Jesus refers to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as "living," but He actually converses with Moses and Elijah at Mt. Tabor, which the Apostles both saw and heard.

Why do you say Jesus "doesn't set the model for us"? I've actually never heard a Christian say such a thing before.

I surely agree that it is an unnatural thing for a human being, created by God as a composite creature with both spiritual and physical components, to exist like a bodiless entity, and such a situation could only be temporary. But so it is, until the resurrection of the body.

Uh; is it just me; but do others think this sounds quite un-Catholic like?

SR: Jesus is God. He can talk to whomever He wishes. That doesn't set the model for us.

MD: Why do you say Jesus "doesn't set the model for us"? I've actually never heard a Christian say such a thing before.

Um, that's because that's not what I actually said. See the top line above. "That" doesn't refer to Jesus as a general role model, it refers to Him having conversations with whoever He wants based on His divine will and power. So you probably have heard other Christians say this before, just not with an opening for ambiguity like I gave you. :) Ordinarily, the expression would be "I'm not God, so I can't do that, just because God can." That's all. It's like, God created the universe, now you go out and do likewise. Um, not going to happen. That's not a pattern I could follow even if I totally wanted to. I'm just a pesky mortal. Can barely tie my own shoes let alone aspire to things so far above me. See what I'm saying? Sorry if there was any confusion. Be assured, that in every respect where I can, as a believer, be an imitator of Christ, that is exactly what I aspire to.

Jesus refers to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as "living," but He actually converses with Moses and Elijah at Mt. Tabor, which the Apostles both saw and heard.

I am not denying they saw and heard Moses and Elijah. I am saying Elijah never died, so he doesn't help your case for the disembodied afterlife theory. They were seeing, in all likelihood (yep, that's a hedge-word) , Elijah's not yet dead pre-resurrection human body. As for Moses, his body was gathered up by the angel, and there may have been a resurrection of sorts for him too. We know resurrections occurred in the OT, but they were not of the order of the spiritual body spoken of by Paul. More like Lazarus. All highly speculative, and I am glad to admit that. But it doesn't create a presumption favoring the disembodied afterlife you propose.

Don't misunderstand me here. I'm not dogmatic about soul sleep. I can see some good arguments for it, and I don't see any Scriptural authority for assuming disembodied consciousness as a general principle. Moses and Elijah were in a class by themselves. How God brought them to the mount of transfiguration is not explained. And as I noted above, there are alternate explanations that are at least as good as, and probably better than, the disembodiment theory.

So while I often wonder how my deceased family members are experiencing their cessation from this life, as well as all the people of God presently dead in Christ, I don't feel it's my place to go beyond what is written. Paul tells us there is such a thing as the dead in Christ. That is what is written. Let others speculate. Like CS Lewis says, it isn't the things in Scripture I don't understand that bother me; it's the things I do understand.

Peace,

SR

Why do you say Jesus "doesn't set the model for us"?

Because that is the first implication of Protestant faith.