Replies

That's exactly my point, dear Cynical Bear, and that's why I state these, not as facts nor even as assumptions, but as I said, wild guesses.

I did NOT base any beliefs on them. On that key point, you are incorrect.

We were discussing St. Paul's precepts at 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 that women should not preach, teach, ask questions in public, or exercise leadership, at least under some circumstances. Nobody has given me, on this thread, an explanation of what their belief is today. Do Paul's limits on women, limit today's Christian woman from all preaching, teaching, and leadership, or not? Or to what extent?

I can't speak of YOUR beliefs, CynicalBear, or metmom's, or anybody else's, because you have not told me what you believe on this score, or what your teachers teach on it.

So, reasonably, I am using tentative language to say "may" or "might" of "if that's the case."

So I will put the question to you directly. Do you think Paul's precepts to the Corinthians and to Timothy mean:

Women should not have any pastoral position.
~OR~
Women are not to be preachers, i.e. at the pulpit, but it may be OK for them to be public speakers an another venue.
~OR~
Women are not to be preachers, but may exercise other pastoral roles.
~OR~
women can't teach by speaking, but it's OK if they teach by writing.
~OR~
Women are forbidden to each adult men in any church venue (e.g. an adult study class.)
~OR~
Women may not teach men in seminaries.
~OR~
Women may not exercise any leadership role whatsoever.
~OR~
A woman may not be head of anything, not even a committee, if that puts a man in a non-leading position.
~OR~
Paul's precepts in this case are limited to his particular place, time, and churches. The churches need not observe this anymore.

~OR~
Is there some other possibility I forgot?

So you see, I did not presume to know what your (various) answer(s) would be. I was very careful NOT to impute to you a position which you do not hold.

So, CynicalBear, metmom, boatbums, mitch5501, Mark17--- educate me. What limits on women are to be observed because of what Paul said in the cited passages?

>>Nobody has given me, on this thread, an explanation of what their belief is today.<<

Sure they have. Multiple times. This is not the "church" and nothing in scripture denies a woman the right to quote scripture. If you find anywhere in scripture that denies a woman to stand up for what scripture teaches let us know. Not one of the woman here is attempting to exert authority over a man that I have found. If you have let us know.

Those who are trying to silence the women here love to bring up Paul's words to Timothy but I don't see them applying what is also included there. Do they also demand that women not braid their hair? How about wearing any jewellery? No gold or pearls worn by Catholic women? How about costly garments? Do Catholic women remain quiet?

Romans 16:11 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

Phoebe a deacon? Say it ain't so.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Was Peter talking to just the men? If you think so would you please show the source?

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Women should teach? Do Catholic women also all stay at home?

The only restriction Paul gives is that women should not have spiritual authority over the man. Those here who would like to wield Paul's letters to silence women had better head to the other words of Paul regarding women as well. Their women had better not fix their hair, or wear jewelery, or pearls, or nice dresses. They need to keep their women home and not out working. If they think Paul was saying women should at all time shut up they had better heed the rest of his words also. If not all I see is hypocrisy.

Mrs DO, you seem like a very nice, reasonable person to me, so let me see if I can make a little sense of this. First let me say, I have attended Assembly of God churches, Southern Baptist churches and Calvary Chapel. I think it was AMPU that said he doesn't care what church you attend. I agree with him, salvation is in a relationship with God, not in some church. Now, let me say, I am not an expert on the role of women in the church. I AM an expert on the plan of salvation. That I do know extremely well, but I will try and give my opinion, but I want to hear what others think too. God has given the pastoral duties to men. I have heard that it might go all the way back to the garden of Eden. Eve was deceived by Satan, into sinning. She was deceived. Adam, on the other hand, was not deceived at all. He walked right into sin, eyes wide open. It is possible (notice I say only possible) that men are placed in authority, due to the fact that men are not as easily deceived in spiritual matters (again, only possible, I don't know this for certain) I have seen some great women as Sunday school teachers, and of course, I think women are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have seen them serve wonderfully in other ministries too.

Now, the 1st Cor 14 thing. My opinion is, this may have been something to cover a local situation. I understand that in their services, the men sat on one side, the women sat on the other side. From what I have been able to gather, is they were calling across the room to their husbands, and disrupting the services. This may have been simply to keep order. I do agree, the women should ask the husband, who is to spiritually lead his wife. Does he lord it over her? Absolutely not. It is just the hierarchy God has set up. As I said, I am very good at the plan of salvation, which is the very most important thing in the entire universe. Some of these other less important issues, I am not so well versed in. I would feel much better deferring to amoreperfectunion and imardmd1. I think they might have a better grasp on some those finer points.

Of course, if you are inquiring about the plan of salvation, I, along with all of these born again Christains can surely help you or anyone who needs it. I hope that helps somewhat, but ask the two I mentioned. I think they are better on those points.