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To: Springfield Reformer
Hmmmm, I don’t see the connection between what you’ve posted and the reference to lexicography. What I see is more of the typical avoidance of Pauline soteriology as clearly spelled out in Romans. I was raised with these arguments in my family. I pretty much know how this works.

Pauline Soteriology. Would will the Twelve Apostles judging on twelve thrones say about that ? There was a reformed theology from Luther and others who created a new religious movement without divine authority almost five centuries ago. Obviously Romans was not clear to them. Since you have pledged yourself, as it were, to the reformers, and I rest in the holy catholic apostolic church, we will not agree and await the judgment of Messiah and the Apostles.

3,517 posted on 12/28/2014 8:06:37 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981; Springfield Reformer
Pauline Soteriology. Would will the Twelve Apostles judging on twelve thrones say about that ? There was a reformed theology from Luther and others who created a new religious movement without divine authority almost five centuries ago. Obviously Romans was not clear to them. Since you have pledged yourself, as it were, to the reformers, and I rest in the holy catholic apostolic church, we will not agree and await the judgment of Messiah and the Apostles.

Why is it many FRoman Catholics seem so incapable of seeing others without placing them in tidy boxes with labels on the outside? Neither SR nor I "pledged" ourselves to the reformers. All we've been trying to do is show the reformers were NOT the originators of the doctrines of sola Scriptura and sola fide but that these were clearly taught IN scripture and were held by many of the very first church "fathers". How is it you can just ignore all the quotes and references that have been posted which proved that?

You have determined you will "rest" (pledge yourself?) in the Roman Catholic church. Fine, who's stopping you? Just as long as you acknowledge that there has been a development over time in your church's doctrines and many were unheard of in the early church and were NEVER taught by the Apostles. Can you do that? You presume your church has the "divine authority" to determine what is the truth - even in matters of faith and morals - and you place your faith in that view even in the face of contradicting or absent passages of Scripture. Again, you have that freedom - no one is going to burn you at the stake. Just know that you WILL be held accountable for the light you have been given and how you respond to it. You will not be able to deny that - and neither will we. I'm cool with that, are you?

WRT Pauline Soteriology, can you provide documentation that proves there was a comprehensive and official Roman Catholic doctrine on justification prior to the Council of Trent that authoritatively states we are justified by faith AND works? Because you cannot, we know that the RC condemnation of the Reformation doctrine of sola fide as a deviation from, and a "theological novum", established RC doctrine is bogus. Like Jaroslav Pelikan wrote,

    When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone—a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers—Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted (justification by faith and works), now became required. What had previously been permitted also (justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52)

3,705 posted on 12/29/2014 3:24:07 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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