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The standard for sin should be set where God sets it. We imagine the offense of our "lesser" sins to be lighter because it is self-serving to do so. But the apostolic truth is this:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

And it gets worse. You know the Sermon on the Mount raised the stakes, so that overt murder and overt adultery are NOT the measure of sin, but any trace of lust, or any hint of anger without due cause, will bring the condemnation of violation of the law.

But it gets worse still. Remember what finally convinced Paul he was a sinner?

Romans 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

So we have it now that even dissatisfaction that leads to wrong desire was sufficient to condemn Paul, and James would further say that such a "victimless" sin, and seemingly so harmless, renders one a violator of God's entire law, and subject to all the horrific consequences stated therein. As someone who has defended clients under Illinois law, this is a defense I know in advance I could never win. God knows every secret passage in our hearts. No matter how outstanding we may appear to the world, all of us have transgressed some aspect of the law of God's perfect love.

Romans 3 was designed to show us stripped of all disguise, to reveal our true status before God. Take the David Challenge. Ask God sometime to show you if there is any secret way in you that displeases Him. Anything at all, no matter how small. Scary thought, true, but if it was good enough for King David, it's certainly good enough for any of us. And it may amaze you what you will see, perhaps a dead man walking, dressed in grave clothes, ready to be sealed off from life forever, running fearfully in the dark amongst the tome stones, dodging the lightning.

But even this undead Lazarus, still full of sin, can by God's grace be made alive, and given a heart to seek Him, to put away the ways of hatred and lust and covetousness, set aside his grave clothes, and step out into the light of day, and into the arms of Jesus. And this will happen, if Jesus cries out, "Lazarus, come forth!"

We all need the Savior. Just some of us know it better than others because we've seen that body of death within us, up close and personal, and we have no illusions about our status before God. Mary recognized her own need, else she had no reason to call Him Savior. Why should we think ourselves better than her?

Peace,

SR

>Just where in the Bible does she say she has no sin?<

Where does it say she did sin? And remember, it would not be enough to show that she sinned in some small way.

No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056

Even your own apologists acknowledge the fact that the false notion of Mary being sinless is not, and cannot be, substantiated in Scripture.

Nor can they appeal to the ECFs.

In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter.

•Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul ; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt ; and that for her sins also Christ died ( Origen, "In Luc. hom. xvii").

•Origen calls her worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, most complete sanctity, perfect justice, neither deceived by the persuasion of the serpent, nor infected with his poisonous breathings ("Hom. i in diversa");

So which one is it??

There are other contradictory positions taken by the ECFs. Here is how catholicism deals with this:

But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science. If we were to attempt to set forth the full doctrine of the Fathers on the sanctity of the Blessed Virgin, which includes particularly the implicit belief in the immaculateness of her conception, we should be forced to transcribe a multitude of passages.

The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception.

So the burden of proof is not upon those denying the immaculate conception. Rather the burden of proof is upon the catholic church to offer proof for the immaculate conception from Scripture which they admit they cannot do nor can they appeal to the ECFs!

So again I ask....what is this belief based on?

Where does it say she did sin?

The BOOK says, "All have sinned..."

It does NOT say, "except Mary."

And remember, it would not be enough to show that she sinned in some small way.

Why not?

The bible IS clear on this:

Matthew 5:17-20

¹⁷Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
¹⁸For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.
¹⁹He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
²⁰For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If the prooftext in Romans 3 is to be taken literally, she would not "seek after God", she would "deal deceitfully" with her tongue; her feet would be "swift to shed blood". So Mary, you guys believe, murdered someone in great haste. Amazing that no one recorded that.

If Catholics really put so much stock in the very words and teachings of Jesus, then why do they ignore the Beatitudes where Jesus taught that if you lusted after a woman, you committed adultery in your heart, and that it's the heart attitude that is what counts, not merely keeping the letter of the law.

Don't forget that hating your brother is equivalent to murder.

So while Mary may not have physically murdered someone, if she lied, hated anyone, whatever, then it's the same in God's eyes as doing the sin.