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Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?
self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone

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To: Mrs. Don-o

I’m sure to a Catholic that has been taught the corrupted meaning of the concept of “church” it would seem that way.


5,341 posted on 01/06/2015 4:33:31 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Syncro
I studied and researched this for years. Unless your links go so some new news stories on this, I have read those. I read the text you posted, years ago when it hit. I know what happened there, you fall for the media's spin. ...."this violent motorcycle gang" Quoted direct from the media. I am defending the facts and have since the beginning. (1969) You sure are harping on me about my personal life. Seems to be your main interest and is not allowed on the RF. But here let me join in. Are you a priest? Did you molest alter boys? When you complain about this post being personal and off topic, be sure to ask to have yours pulled also...."this violent motorcycle gang" Quoted direct from the media. Your post that this reply is directed to, for documentation: Did you even trace the link to the authors ? You are clueless. I'm still curious about your personal relationship with this violent motorcycle gang. Did you know Sonny ? In prison ? Offensive insinuation bolded.

LOL, you mentioned your personal life connections to Mick Jagger and when you then said Sonny Barger did not want anything to do with security (which is misleading; he did not want to be formal security but agreed to the job for the Stones, which was a mistake; I tend to blame the Stones and their music most, but there is plenty of blame to go around for that tragedy) it suggested to me you knew him personally. That happens when you drop names. I should not have teased you, and it was about him being in prison, not you. You see, the membership of that particular gang were very trigger happy when someone mentioned Sonny Barger, their leader, went to prison. I assume they frequently visited him in prison. Odd how it is a commandment to visit those in prison and it is automatically assumed to be an insult. At least no one assaulted me and draw a gun on me me for mentioning Sonny went to prison so I That is something to be grateful for. Yes that particular motorcycle gang was vicious and violent.

5,342 posted on 01/06/2015 4:40:59 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Yes, it is very interesting. Remember, I am not an expert by any means on the roles played by both men and women. I had to smile when you said men and women are to be complimentary, but exactly what does that mean. It is a good question for sure. I do not agree with those who are pushing that ideology that men and women are the same, except for the plumbing, as you so eloquently put it. I don't like that term either. 😄. I think women are vastly superior to men in the caring department, like child care, nursing, anything that has to do with caring. Later.
5,343 posted on 01/06/2015 4:43:43 PM PST by Mark17 (All thru dark hours dreary, knocking again is He. Jesus are thou not weary, waiting so long for me?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Perhaps you didn’t read what I sent a whole back at #5141 To summarize, to fail to join, or fail to remain in, the Catholic Church, is grave matter, since God wills us to be members of the Church he built, under Peter the Chief Shepherd and his successors. However it cannot be said to be a mortal sin if you are ignorant of the fact that God wills you to be in this Church.”

MDO,

I realize you believe this from your catholic upbringing or catechism. However, hundreds of millions of Christian believers do not believe:

That the Catholic denomination is the “church He built.”
That it was built under or upon Peter.
That there was an unbroken chain beneath Peter.
That there is to be one earthly central authority over all churches, like McDonalds franchisees under a corporate headquarters.

And finally, we do not believe it is a mortal sin to not be Catholic. We wish that every person, including every Catholic would come to saving faith in Christ. He alone is over every local gathering.

Best.


5,344 posted on 01/06/2015 4:46:11 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Anyway, as a Catholic, let me take this opportunity to say I’m real glad we gave you the Bible.”

I realize you believe this, but we credit GOD for inspiring and preserving and transmitting His Holy Word. It all happened through His sovereignty.

The rooster who crows and believes he raised the sun is never right.

Still, if we pretend to agree with your sentence above, your denomination loves to brag about history. God has no grandchildren. Only children.

What role God chose people to play in His plan throughout the ages has nothing to do with the legitimacy of an organization today that has at best obscured the Gospel that can save eternally.

I am grateful for every person God used historically - including Jews, through whom we have 2/3 of Scripture.


5,345 posted on 01/06/2015 4:51:08 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I am grateful for every person God used historically - including Jews, through whom we have 2/3 all the books of Scripture, because unto them were committed the oracles of God. And so many of the best doctors were Jews; don't ask me why.
5,346 posted on 01/06/2015 4:59:15 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

“through whom we have 2/3 all the books of Scripture, because unto them were committed the oracles of God.”

Likely true, but there are some unknowns:

Who wrote Ruth? She was not a Jew. Did she write it?
Who wrote Job? His life came before the Jewish nation (I think).
Who wrote Luke & Acts? Tradition often says he was a Gentile. Was he?

.............

More to my point, the Hebrew Scriptures were written before the early church came into existence.


5,347 posted on 01/06/2015 5:06:20 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Likely true, but there are some unknowns:

Who wrote Ruth? She was not a Jew. Did she write it?
[AF: She became a Jew by joining Klal Yisroel;no, it would be a Jewish man, by tradition Samuel the prophet]
Who wrote Job? His life came before the Jewish nation (I think). [af: Moses, by Jewish tradition, wrote Job
Who wrote Luke & Acts? Tradition often says he was a Gentile. Was he?[af: No. He was a doctor to the Jews, and an author of scripture. He was a Jew, albeit a Grecian (Hellenistic) Jew from the Diaspora. You may have popes who are not Italian, but all the authors of the oracles of God are Jews; not that the Gentile ECFs are not good reading; .............

More to my point, the Hebrew Scriptures were written before the early church came into existence.

And you didn't even ask who wrote Hebrews

5,348 posted on 01/06/2015 5:20:03 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

“And you didn’t even ask who wrote Hebrews “

didn’t need to do so...


5,349 posted on 01/06/2015 5:39:58 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: Mark17

First come, first served?

The men were too busy hiding out?


5,350 posted on 01/06/2015 6:19:16 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CynicalBear
The Church in the NT is visible, has distinct features, has an incipient structure, has power, has the authority to teach, and the authority to expel those who teach wrongly.

I'm sure you mus see at least some of that. I could add paragraphs and citations after each one of those phrases, but it would be easier to say "read Acts and the Epistles."

5,351 posted on 01/06/2015 6:20:09 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Thanks for this good discussion, aMPU.

Just a little bit of a note before I go to bed.

The Catholic Church is not "like McDonalds franchisees under a corporate headquarters." The Dioceses and so forth are not like franchisees at all. They do not comprise a corporation, nor do they have the kind of legal or economic structure tha a corporation does. And the vast majority of its members are neither consumers nor employees.

The best analogy you can reach for, I think, is a living organism. It's like a body.

"And finally, we do not believe it is a mortal sin to not be Catholic"

Well, what the Church says is that it is "grave matter" --- it's not a mortal sin unless you realize you are opposing God's will, and intend that.

It's serious, but it's not an automatic ticket to hell!

"We wish that every person, including every Catholic would come to saving faith in Christ."

I wish that right along with you.

Peace!

5,352 posted on 01/06/2015 6:30:13 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
" we credit GOD for inspiring and preserving and transmitting His Holy Word. It all happened through His sovereignty."

Absolutely agree on this.

"I am grateful for every person God used historically - including Jews, through whom we have 2/3 of Scripture."

Absolutely agree on this, too.

Jews, Catholics --- He works through such imperfect instruments. Think of that!

5,353 posted on 01/06/2015 6:32:33 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“The Catholic Church is not “like McDonalds franchisees under a corporate headquarters.” The Dioceses and so forth are not like franchisees at all. They do not comprise a corporation, nor do they have the kind of legal or economic structure tha a corporation does. And the vast majority of its members are neither consumers nor employees. The best analogy you can reach for, I think, is a living organism. It’s like a body.”

Actually, after reading your response and letting mine set in a bit more, I think the McDonald’s model is the Catholic Church model.

Equipment identical in every location
Menu identical
Branding identical
Few employees, lots of customers
McDonald’s doesn’t have great food. They have fast food.
Mother corporation is supported by the daughter franchisees. As a corporate employee of the MD’s told me, “hamburgers are how our franchisees pay their lease payments.”
Training manual of beliefs is identical
One leader all obey
One corporate headquarters
McDonald’s University, where they train new franchisees
Oldest franchise (not necessarily the best)
Lots of minority customers
Total control and domination of franchisees - their way or the highway

Well, it’s late and that’s off the top of my head.

If anyone else wants to take up the question, “How is the Catholic Church similar to a McDonald’s”, have at it!

best.


5,354 posted on 01/06/2015 6:43:56 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

” Well, what the Church says is that it is “grave matter” -— it’s not a mortal sin unless you realize you are opposing God’s will, and intend that. It’s serious, but it’s not an automatic ticket to hell!”

But salvation has never been in a church, but in a Savior. It not only isn’t a grave matter, it is not a sin of any kind.

There is one ticket to hell - failing to entrust ourselves to Christ alone for salvation, but attempting to define our own righteousness through good works.


5,355 posted on 01/06/2015 6:45:33 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: Elsie

It is indeed the only work of God, to believe in Him, Who God sent. This is why I am Catholic. I believe fully. Protestantism, to the contrary, stole the Christian faith from those it fooled.


5,356 posted on 01/06/2015 7:24:39 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: metmom; aMorePerfectUnion
First come, first served?

The men were too busy hiding out?

I want AMPU to comment as well. He has a lot more education than I do, but this is what I heard. I heard, that at that time, the rulers did not arrest women until Saul of Tarsus was breathing out threatenings. Then, they arrested both men and women. AMPU, have you got anymore insight into it?

5,357 posted on 01/06/2015 7:38:31 PM PST by Mark17 (All thru dark hours dreary, knocking again is He. Jesus are thou not weary, waiting so long for me?)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Repeating a falsehood over and over does not make it a truth

I am not repeating falsehoods, I repeat the verses you guys don't like and try to fast forward past them. In your case that was 1 Cor. 11:23-30, which regardless of the larger context speaks of the literal body and blood of Christ. I also explained that the difference in context is illusory: the Catholic Church IS the body of Christ because we EAT the body of Christ.

your assumption from “opponent” to fellow believer

On what basis? I believe in Him Whom God sent fully. You pick and choose your faith based on what your pastor inculcated in you. No sale. convert to the proper Catholic faith and then we shall be fellow believers. Not sooner. You-all certainly have an interest in the teachings of Christ and that is very good, but it does not mean you -- collectively you-all, -- know these teachings from these He sent. You-all formed your own notions. But you-all were not sent. My Church was.

you have not done the work

What work? The Holy Scripture says what it says. No "work" is necessary to figure out that when someone says "this is my body" and then defends the proposition against a bunch or proto-Protestants, He probably means what He says. When something is not clear -- I do the work: I go to the sources, I find hidden quotes from the Old Testament, I compare translations, I find other usages, I study Greek. But these passages are clear. They are so clear you-all couldn't even mistranslate them for 500 years.

ad hominem attacks against Protestant hermeneutics

Hermeneutics is not a hominus to use ad hominems on it. It is a way to lie about the plain meaning of the scripture. It is a method. The method is false.

5,358 posted on 01/06/2015 7:39:12 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: CynicalBear; boatbums

You do so not in direct speech of course. You do so by fast-forwarding to some other passage that you like better, or by suggesting that the context makes the passage somehow void.


5,359 posted on 01/06/2015 7:41:15 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Springfield Reformer; aMorePerfectUnion
Hermeneutics is just the science/art of figuring out what a text means

I have nothing against that and I have done that work when necessary. I am making fun of Protestant of losing the textual argument and then saying something like "study some hermeneutics". If S.t Paul, for example, makes a remark that reveals that he, Paul, thinks that the bread and wine of the Last Supper is the body of Christ sacrificed for us, then that is not the case for pulling rabbits out of a hat. It is plain text. He says so in the middle of an epistle about Christian brotherhood. That is another fact. So instead of ignoring the verses you-all THINK are out of context as if St. Paul did not write them at all, and calling that sleight-of-hand "hermeneutics", perhaps you-all should learn the other lesson: that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ because of the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist. No hermeneutics are necessary to figure that.

mines in the ground

That is the thing. The Holy Scripture is written by Catholics for Catholics. To the Protestants it is a minefield indeed.

5,360 posted on 01/06/2015 7:49:53 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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