Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[Elsie]

Whoa!!!

For a minute there I thought I’d missed a great news event!!!

[Elsie]

...from US!!!

[Elsie]

Kiss your neighbors spouse.

See if YOUR spouse finds that ADORATION!

[verga]

Dodging the question. Not surprised. I will take it as your tacit admission that I am indeed correct.

[verga]

Funny stuff, completely false but funny none the less. Stupid for Jesus doesn’t cut it.

[CynicalBear]

No, Mary is not the queen of heaven and the sign in Revelation 12 is not a sign of Mary. It's a sign of the nation of Israel as prophesied in Isaiah.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

We see that sign appearing in heaven in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The Catholic doctrine of elevating Mary is simply an attempt to justify inclusion of pagan beliefs in order to attract pagans into the religion of Catholicism.

[CynicalBear]

>>do not make the blunder of saying we adore Mary<<

Word games don't change the reality Mrs. Don-o. It has been shown time and time again in these threads how Catholics elevate Mary giving her status and abilities which are God's alone. There have been examples of Catholics dedicating their lives wholly to Mary rather than Christ. There are prayers to Mary for Catholics to consecrate themselves to Mary. The Catholic Church has put Mary in a position of usurping the rightful place of the Holy Spirit and Jesus.

[GBA]

Geobbells would be proud!

Dude, you're in a very dark place and time is growing short for you to find the Light.

The things you're saying, whether in ignorance or malice, you won't be able to justify when your time comes to explain, imho.

I will pray for you. You know not what you do.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

Rome teaches that Jesus does the will of the Father.

---

Didn’t many of you claim Jesus does the will of Mary?

[CynicalBear]

>>I am sorry to tell you. It is not allowed for to go to your pastor according to many of the others around here.<<

Please show where anyone has said that.

[ealgeone]

The problem is with your line of reasoning here that the word for “worship” used in Scripture is not always applied to God. Among numerous Old Testament passages that can be provided to demonstrate “worship” of created beings (that was not forbidden), there is also Rev 3:9 which uses the exact same word (”proskyneo”) that you claim is only appropriately applied to God. It’s not given to God in that verse and in fact God Himself (Jesus) sanctions the “worship” of created beings in that verse.

Let's keep things in context. "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you".

Notice Who is causing the members of the synagogue of Satan to bow down.

who are they bowing down to?

When you bow down to someone what is the significance?

Matthew 27:29

And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"

Revelation 22:8-9

8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

Acts 10:25-26

And when it came about that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshipped him. But Peter raise him up saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”

John and Peter (you remember Peter don't you?) set the example of how we should handle this.

We do not bow down or worship Mary.

[ealgeone]

Kiss your neighbors spouse.

See if YOUR spouse finds that ADORATION!

Didn't Clinton try the same type reasoning.....????

[CynicalBear]

Why do Catholics not get the fact that faith appropriates salvation. All the other stuff is simply evidence of that faith.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

I will take it as your tacit admission that I am indeed correct.

---

You are wrong!

[CynicalBear]

Please prove that your “word of mouth” came from the apostles.

[CynicalBear]

>>I will take it as your tacit admission that I am indeed correct.<<

I'm not surprised. Catholics base most of their beliefs on assumptions.

[Dutchboy88]

Well, tragically, Mr. Stanley could not stay married to a woman to whom he committed his life, until death do they part. But, his flesh is weak and his theology, weaker.

AOG believes in way too much man-made showy “gifting” and comes up short on every one of them. I know many very well.

Dallas’ Chuck Ryrie, (and several of his protégés) the same problem with women as Stanley.

And, don’t get me going on Calvary Chapel. Too much gambling and playing around.

You may need a better teacher here, my FRiend. The thief on the cross was not baptized in water, but he certainly was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. If you wish to know more about the real incredibly good news of Jesus Christ, drop me a note.

[FourtySeven]

Notice Who is causing the members of the synagogue of Satan to bow down.[in Rev 3:9]

God (Jesus, "The Holy One, the true one, he that has the key of David", cf Rev 3:7)

who are [the Synagoge of Satan] bowing down to?

The members of the church of Philiadeplphia who "has kept my word and haven't denied my name" (cf Rev 3:8). In other words they aren't bowing down to (proskyneo) God. They are "proskyneo" to created beings (the faithful of the church of Philiadelphia)

When you bow down to someone what is the significance?

You are showing respect and/or defrence to another, not necessarily worshiping them as you would a god or The God.

This is in fact demonstrated by your citation of Matt 27:29. I can assure you His torturers were not worshipping Him as they did their gods, much less the true God (which clearly in their hearts they did not know.). They were giving Jesus false worship (even though He was deserving of infinitely more.)

The rest of your post I do not see the relevance thereof, for it seems to miss the point that is clear from the above: Rev 3:9 solidly and unquestionably refutes your claim which is "proskyneo" is only due to God alone. The fact that St Peter refused to allow someone to bow to him (because he was humble) and/or that St John erroneously attempted to worship the messenger as he would the One God are irrelevant. They are both examples of erroneous worship and/or humility. Not proof that all worship of created beings is wrong.

Again: Rev 3:9 solidly and unquestionably refutes your claim which is "proskyneo" is only due to God alone.

Unless and until you acknowledge this I see no point in dialoging with you further.

[annalex]

it was a sign that appeared in heaven NOT a woman

Sign (σημειον) refers to the nature of the image: it was a miracle for John to see her. Signs, however, don't give birth, woman do.

If the woman is Mary is she also at that point in pain about to give birth?

That is what the Bible says.

Isaiah 66:7 ...she was delivered of a male

Now, please show that Zion is actually Mary

Yes, that is a prophecy of Mary delivering Jesus. Mary is of course the fulfillment and the high point of "Zion". Micah 4:9-10 simply calls her "daughter of Zion".

Is your theory that the nation of Israel collectively gave birth to Jesus?

Nativity of the Lord

Let us pray.

Let the just rejoice,
for their justifier is born.
Let the sick and infirm rejoice,
For their saviour is born.
Let the captives rejoice,
For their Redeemer is born.
Let slaves rejoice,
for their Master is born.
Let free men rejoice,
For their Liberator is born.
Let All Christians rejoice,
For Jesus Christ is born.

St. Augustine of Hippo (AD 354-440)

[ealgeone]

>Notice Who is causing the members of the synagogue of Satan to bow down.[in Rev 3:9]<

God (Jesus, "The Holy One, the true one, he that has the key of David", cf Rev 3:7)

And no where does God ever tell us to "venerate" Mary in any form, fashion, etc.

When the pope says none come to Jesus except through Mary you've gone way beyond "veneration". And please don't say the pope did say this or mean it that way.

Catholics have placed Mary on a whole different level than what she is accorded in the Bible. And it is all man-made...not God directed.

That was the point of asking those questions. What's happening in this passage is God directed.

Not man directed as catholics do with Mary.

The following from Luke leaves no room for the "veneration" catholicism gives Mary.

Luke 10:27

And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."