Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Resettozero]

A Protestant protesting being called Protestant needs no refutation.

But...I'm not a Protestant, vlad...honest. Not with a capital P like you are posting. You really are still just sucking the milk tit and spitting up, while other FReepers are chewing on more meaty matters.

[Resettozero]

Gee, sounds like you’re making it personal.

And you just didn't, vlad?

Pray to a mod for help if you need it.

[af_vet_1981]

'Course not. But being born again of the Spirit and following Lord Jesus Christ all of my remaining days...does.

How would one demonstrate that ?

[Resettozero]

How would one demonstrate that ?

John 3 (NIV)

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

27 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.”

31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

[CynicalBear]

Signs of a cult.

1. Every cult has a single powerful human leader. In fact, all cult leaders will proclaim themselves a god on earth.

Catholic Church - check

2. The cult leaders word, or teachings of the cult become absolute truth over shadowing the Word of God.

Catholic Church - check

3. Each cult uses force to coerce its members into submission. Most cults today will use high pressure tactics to get people to not only join them, they also resort to extreme measures to make them stay.

Catholic Church - Check

4. A Cult will teach a Gospel of good works in place of the Gospel of Jesus Christ alone.

Catholic Church - check

No tin foil needed. The Catholic Church is a cult.

[CynicalBear]

They wouldn’t make public even if they did know where her remains were. Can you imagine the havoc that would cause?

[CynicalBear]

The mental gymnastics they have to go through to defend the Catholic beliefs is astounding.

[CynicalBear]

>>I am writing for the benefit of intellectually-honest bystanders.<<

Any "intellectually honest" bystanders would understand that a dogma as important to the Catholic Church as the assumption of Mary based on nothing more than lack of evidence is not of God. Any "intellectually honest" person would understand that if God thought it important like the Catholic Church does would not have left it to conjecture.

[Resettozero]

Ask that feller or gal to prove the RCC hasn’t secreted her remains. Doesn’t it seem to you that early Christians might have noted the day, date, and sundial time that Mary was assumed ANYWHERE had they seen her caught up in glory?

Mary the mother of Jesus is still dead, or asleep in the Lord if one prefers, as is mine own, waiting on the next Resurrection. Cannot hear anything right now, much less prayers to her or in her name.

There is no proof or disproof of this discussion just now. It is strictly a matter of faith in and love of the Lord Jesus Christ and following Him alone. The truth, in His time, will be made evident to everyone who has ever had a tongue to confess or a knee to bow.

[Arthur McGowan]

If Mary is the mother of God and the God is the Father, then Mary is the mother of God the Father.

If Mary is the mother of God and God is the Holy Spirit, then Mary is the mother of God the Holy Spirit.

It is false to say that God is "the Father." God is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is similarly false to say that "God is the Holy Spirit."

Even taking your statements to mean that "the Father is God" and "the Holy Spirit is God"--both of which are true--your two syllogisms are formally invalid. The fallacy involved is the "undistributed middle." The following syllogism is of the same invalid form as your two invalid syllogisms:

Helen is the mother of a fireman.

Sam is a fireman.

Ergo: Helen is the mother of Sam.

[Arthur McGowan]

...based on nothing more than lack of evidence...

Murderers and other criminals are convicted every day on precisely this kind of "lack of evidence." That is, the absence of someone's NORMAL, CHARACTERISTIC behavior on the night in question. The ABSENCE of the Hope Diamond at the Smithsonian would not be "absence of any evidence." It would be EVIDENCE of a crime.

You are repeatedly pretending that the POSITIVE FACT of the absence of someting NORMAL is "the absence of any facts." If you were a trial lawyer, incapable of making such an elementary distinction, you would starve.

[Resettozero]

Ergo: Helen is the mother of Sam.

Rightly dividing the Scriptures requires a second birth...a being born again of the Spirit, as Jesus plainly said.

(We've all come through our mothers' water sacs...the first birth. And it's been appointed for all of us once to die and then the judgement.)

Satan also has read and no doubt studied and memorized Scriptures but so much is hidden from his understanding that he cannot even quote Scripture correctly.

What happened at the Cross was a surprise to the enemy of mine and your soul. Much of what happens next in history to come will be unforeseen also, because he (the enemy who still intends to destroy all those God has chosen) has it all figured out...entirely wrongly.

One little word will slay him.

Water is for flesh. Spirit begets spirit.

[metmom]

Mary is the mother of God says that God has a mother.

Since it doesn’t specify Jesus, there is no reason to presume that it has to be Him.

The Holy Spirit in Scripture, that He breathed out and inspired, named Mary *mother of Jesus*, not *mother of God*.

By calling Mary *mother of God* it does not address Jesus at all except by assumption, and it does not recognize the Incarnation.

Mary is not the mother of deity, which is what *mother of GOD* says.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Mary is the Bearer of Messiah. Nothing more, but certainly nothing less. That is more than enough to be called blessed among women. It is an amazing honor.

[Resettozero]

Affirmed.

[CynicalBear]

Let me re-phrase that for those with comprehension problems. The Holy Spirit throughout scripture called Mary the mother of Jesus. Never did He call her the mother of God.

[CynicalBear]

>>Exchange of wedding rings - that’s from paganism.<<

What part of "I don't wear a wedding ring" did you not understand? I know you desperately need something to hang on to but making things up or assuming something doesn't make you look smarter.

[metmom]

It appears that interpretation problems exist on all levels.

[CynicalBear]

Wow! Do priests rely so much on man’s wisdom and understanding. The carnal nature of your debate tactics is telling.

[CynicalBear]

>>It is false to say that God is "the Father.<<

Who did Jesus pray to?