Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Resettozero]

In any case, Kenrick still believed in papal infallibility. His view was that it was exercised in union with the world’s bishops. That still means his view rejects every contrary Protestant view. It’s always funny when Protestant anti-Catholics - not really knowing what they’re talking about - cite a Catholic as an ally to their heretical views when that same Catholic still doesn’t believe what Protestants believe and in fact believes something much closer to what the Protestants are condemning. The Protestant anti-Catholics are usually too stupid to realize that is the case. Archbishop Kenrick submitted obediently to the decision of the Council. He died. The Church didn’t. The papacy didn’t. Papal Infallibility didn’t either.

Then Kenrick was just as lost, walking in darkness, as many men are even today.

[metmom]

The title was never intended to imply that Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Trinity in eternity.

But the title, the mother of God DOES imply that she is not only the mother of the Second Person of the Trinity in eternity but also that she is the mother of the GODHEAD.

[Resettozero]

Perhaps, but clearly not as fruitful.

Clearly.

But let another judge instead of you.

[metmom]

But since he is one Person, not two persons, and because she is his mother, she is called “Mother of God.”

Which denies His humanity and the Incarnation.

Calling her the mother of Jesus recognizes both natures.

[Resettozero]

She is a help.

For what purpose?

Jesus isn't enough for you?

[Arthur McGowan]

So, what is YOUR explanation for the UNUSUAL behavior of the early Christians when it comes to any possible relics of Mary? Perhaps the early Christians NEVER gave Mary the mother of God label. Perhaps they never made statues of her or prayed to her or in her name. Maybe the RCC did that at some later time?

When people suddenly change the subject, they call their intellectual honesty into question

You have just changed the subject. We weren't discussing any of Mary's "titles." We were discussing the total absence from history of any claim, by anyone, to have the body of Mary or any part of it.

Since the early Christians normally treasured the bodies of holy persons--such as the apostles--the ABSENCE of any such phenomenon in connection with Mary is a positive fact that demands an explanation.

What is your explanation for this totally uncharacteristic behavior by the entire early Church?

[CynicalBear]

The Catholic Church says that Jesus has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature. Jesus did not get His divine nature from Mary. Or perhaps you claim that Jesus got His divine nature from Mary?

[metmom]

Which is NOT a command of Jesus to believers.

Posting it as if it were will lead someone to the wrong interpretation of that passage.

What Jesus said when He spoke those words, is Matthew 18:15-18 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

For all the criticism non=Catholics receive about cherry picking verses and taking them out of context, there is simply no way anyone is going to one up this abuse of Scripture.

Taking a fragment of a sentence and posting it as a command of Jesus' is the ultimate in cherry picking verses to support a doctrine.

It will lead to deception.

[af_vet_1981]

Won't grieve you any further, af_vet-1981. But careful slinging around phrases from Scripture you plainly do not understand.

Do you deny Mary is the mother of Emmanuel ? Do you deny Emmanuel is "God with Us?"

Being reflexively an antiCatholic protester does not make one a Christian who listens to and walks in the Holy Spirit.

[metmom]

Why would God, choosing and ordering all things from eternity, and willing to give us His precious and perfect Son, choose a damaged mother with a blasted, twisted human nature who wasn't even as good as Eve was, fresh from th hand of God in Eden.

He was tempted in every way, just as we are and yet was without sin.

Being raised by a perfect mother would not enable Him to share fully in our humanity and identify fully with it.

And why would this defective specimen (Mary) then be called "Blessed among women," and "Kecharitomene" when she wasn't even as good as Original Eve?

Because where sin abounds, grace much more abounds.

Eve didn't need grace. Only sinners need grace.

[Resettozero]

What is consistent is that Protestant anti-Catholics have little or no idea...

You misintrepret Christian FReepers' responses which are intended to expose the myriad fallacies and soul-entrapping unBiblical heavy-handed teachings of the RCC, a well-known and pervasive cult still enslaving millions to an ancient form of religion without their comprehension or even awareness of it.

Not a "Protestant anti-Catholic". I protest that label.

[Arthur McGowan]

A—Helen is the mother of William.
B—William is a fireman.
Ergo: Helen is the mother of a fireman.

1) Is there a logical error in the above syllogism?

2) Does the above syllogism logically imply that William is not a pianist?

Please answer question number one, which is a Yes-or-No question.

After you have done that, please answer question number two, which is also a Yes-or-No question.

[metmom]

Otherwise we are all nothing but ventriloquists' dummies, sock-puppets, androids, and this world is the Matrix and whole shebang is a farce.

Scripture tells us that we are slaves to sin.

We don't have free will.

[CynicalBear]

>>I am implying that the early Christian community all BELIEVED something that would result in NO ONE believing ANY claim by ANYONE--true or false--to have a corpse or any relics of Mary.<<

Universally known yet not one mention by either secular or religious writers. Wow! The likelihood of that is nil.

[Syncro]

That didn’t take long!

[metmom]

Bowing down in a country dance is not bowing down before a carved image, which is what the pope was clearly doing in the image posted.

I’ve seen these kinds of mental gymnastics before in trying to justify calling priests *Father* for example.

[Resettozero]

What is your explanation for this totally uncharacteristic behavior by the entire early Church?

I've given possible answers on several posts to you. That you ignore what I answered and that you continue this barrage as if you have backed me into some non-existent corner, is starting to amount to harassment. Would you like to continue ask me again the same unprovable (by either one of us) questions again?

Asked and answered. Drop the nonsense, Art.

[CynicalBear]

>>have not shown how any truly Catholic Marian teaching is in conflict with the Bible.<<

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Please show where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.

[af_vet_1981]

The Catholic Church says that Jesus has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature.

Is this teaching of God or man ? What sayest thou ?

[metmom]

Mary IS the mother of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word, the Second Person of the Trinity.

Mary is the mother of the Incarnate word, not the second person of the trinity.

Therefore she is the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God.