Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Mrs. Don-o]

I’m in a hurry but one word about this: this image does not pray. If someone thinks this image prays, that person is superstitious. This is against the First Commandment,

[Gamecock]

Well, we do have Bibles too!

[nicmarlo]

For example, the cloud and the burning bush. The scriptures say they were angels.

metmom: "Scripture says no such thing."

Thanks for addressing that silliness. I meant to but overlooked it due to the other.....errors...in his post.

;)

[nicmarlo]

Once again, I agree with you metmom...as would anyone familiar with the Scriptures.

[nicmarlo]

LOL

[caww]

They'd never do that.....not when they can viusalize idols out of anything that even remotely might appear to them as idols..check this recent one

So called image of Mary in a cut tree branch....hundreds flocking to this to pray and Dozens of candles and flowers are being put daily in place at the foot of the tree..'as an offering to the image'... that they consider a miracle.

... though it is nothing more than a pattern created by the tree rings.

The residents have planned 'a festival around the tree' (Dec.12). They are also going to ask the regional bishop if the image in the piece of wood could be considered as an official miracle.

Here we have a tree stumb adorned and 'offerings made to it as being declared an image of Mary..

[caww]

Link to the above images

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/11/05A84E50000005DC-2870078-image-m-57_1418306753316.jpg

[nicmarlo]

I would NOT want to explain to God after I die why I would have worshipped such things.

[boatbums]

Yes, do you know of any? Since Protestants won’t ask you about “sleep” in the Bible, or about whether or not any souls are now in Heaven, or if Paradise is Heaven, there doesn’t seem to be many on the Protestant side of things here. I don’t expect that to change. The formal but deceptive lock-step uniformity of Protestant anti-Catholics must be maintained after all.

I'll give you a pass on this one, Vlad, because, unlike Mary and the Saints, you can't be everywhere and know everything. Elsie and I, as well as others, HAVE discussed our disagreement with each other on this topic. And guess what? It was civil and respectful. That's the beautiful thing about those areas called "nonessential" and "disputable matters". Rather than these differences being cause for schism, they are viewed as areas where a Christian CAN be "fully persuaded in his own mind" and there is a freedom in Christ.

This happens within Roman Catholicism in spite of the oft-touted "unity" Catholics supposedly enjoy. On these Religion Forums, for example, I've seen disagreements AMONG Roman Catholics over what Purgatory even is. There is much gray area within the doctrines of Catholicism that even the Catechism fails to define. So if one Catholic believes Purgatory is a momentary "cleaning station" prior to entrance into heaven where NOBODY suffers torment, and another believes Purgatory is a place as bad as hell and people DO suffer painful torment while their sins are purged from their souls and can last thousands of years, does it mean Catholicism is in schism? Or, can you admit there are disputable matters in your church as well?

We aren't talking about the "essential" tenets of the Christian faith such as those extrapolated within the Nicean creed, for example, but areas where Scripture doesn't spell out specifically what is to be believed. I happen to believe Jesus led those in Paradise (Abraham's bosom) to heaven when he went to the lower parts of the earth after his crucifixion. I believe those who have died in faith are present with the Lord in their spirit/soul condition and will receive their glorified bodies at the time Christ returns to take up His bride prior to the Tribulation. Elsie has said he believes people's soul/spirit sleeps in death and do not have any consciousness within the presence of God until the resurrection when all receive glorified bodies (I hope I got that right, Elsie). He has reasons from Scripture for believing that just as I have for what I believe, but the Scriptures don't specifically spell that part out either way. These difference aren't ignored as if we have to pretend we are all in lockstep uniformity (like RCs often do), they are discussed and we may end up agreeing to disagree, preferring to not allow it to effect our fellowship in Christ. Why not try it?

[nicmarlo]

Sadly, the evidence suggests that many are unaware of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You're right. It's sadly the case with most churches I've attended (denominational and non-denominational). The work of the Holy Spirit is hardly ever touched upon.

He is part of the God-head and is given such little respect, acknowledgement, or emphasis (I don't mean intentional disrespect, I mean just ignoring Him and His work in us, which is disrespectful).

[nicmarlo]

Amen. Jesus, come quickly!

[CynicalBear]

Idol worship plain and simple.

[CynicalBear]

>>I would NOT want to explain to God after I die why I would have worshipped such things.<<

I rather doubt they will get that chance.

[caww]

...."they really aren't bowing to the statue they are bowing to what it represents. God didn't say "don't bow down unless it represents something else".......

well worse is their incorporating Buddist Monks and Shinto Priests into their church services as pictured below

While Holy Mass was celebrated in the 'Sacrament' Chapel of the Cathedral church, the front of the main altar was opened to Buddhist monks and Shinto priests for their rites.

Rather like Clinton saying Monica and he didn't have sex

[nicmarlo]

Well, actually, at the Great White Throne Judgment, Christ will open all the Books....everything we’ve ever done is at least one of them, such as accepting Christ as one’s Savior or not being recorded in the Book of Life...so, won’t they be asked about things Christ brings up about their life choices during this time? That will not be fun times...maybe He won’t get that far....

[CynicalBear]

Well said.

[CynicalBear]

Those who put their faith in Him alone are forgiven any sins. God said they are forgiven never to be brought up again. If they don’t ask forgiveness for disobeying His command to not bow down to idols and turn from those practices and also continue to put their faith in Mary and other so called saints ......well.....

[nicmarlo]

Correct. I misspoke by saying “we” in the general sense meaning humanity, not to include “we” who have accepted Christ and do not appear at the Great White Throne Judgment. “We” appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[caww]

....”evidence suggests that many are unaware of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.”.....

I agree but I do think the Charismatic and Pentecostal Movements have often been so theatrical and emotional regarding the Holy Spirit, (the other extreme), that few want to appear in any way as if affilitated with that behavior and the outbursts which so often appear to be more offensive then inviting.

So those who do seek to understand the Spirits work have difficulty fining the balance ....not just for Catholics but for all who are Christians.

[caww]

Christians will not be Judged ...Jesus’s work was comlete and a finished work for sin. Every bit.

Christains will be rewarded for what they have done.....there is now therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus...Romans 8:1