Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Questions:
Do you think Sunday is in some distinct way the Lord's day for Christians, replacing the Seventh Day (Saturday)?
Do you think it's OK to translate the NT into other languages, other than the original Greek?
Do you think it's OK for the Bible to be formatted into chapters and verses?
Do you think it's OK to be married in a church? Do you think it's OK for the bride and groom to exchange rings?
Cause there sure are a number of Catholics on this board who think differently about it than you.
At the end of May........*sigh*
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
“No, just pointing out the hypocrisy.”
You can’t point out what didn’t exist. None of those ephebophile or pedophile priests you referred to post here as far as anyone knows. Yet we KNOW there are anti-Catholics who post here and who have been caught posting outright falsehoods AND THEY SAID SO when caught.
Upstate NY.
Where the sun never shines.
(Well, mostly never, especially in the winter. Our longest sunless stretch so far is 15 consecutive days)
We got nailed with a storm just this past Wed and I think the sun flashed out for a couple minutes, maybe. It’s been constant clouds and now it’s raining, drizzling, snowing, fog, you name it. But no sun.
However, I love to garden and soon as the weather breaks, I’m starting seeds.
I’ve been growing my own garlic for several years now and it’s nice to have stuff that you know isn’t from China.
Can you grow ginger that you pick up at the grocery stores or is it treated like potatoes?
“That’s no guarantee that it doesn’t happen.”
Nope. But since there’s no evidence of it whatsoever it must be so.
“And when you have people praying to commit their lives fully to Mary, that’s worship as is demonstrated by these prayers.”
False. Committing yourself to Mary is committing yourself to Mary IN Jesus. There is no worship of Mary there.
“People placing their eternal salvation in HER hands?”
Yep - in Mary IN Jesus. And there is no worship there.
“Idolatry, plain and simple.”
Nope. No idolatry at all.
“Jesus our JUDGE?”
Yes, He is our Judge.
“Nope, He’s our savior.”
He’s also our Judge. You apparently aren’t familiar with the scriptures:
Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to [a]preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
See also 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10. Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. The Bible says Christ is the judge of every one of us. This is common knowledge among Christians. Why did you deny Christ is our Judge (appointed by God the Father) when that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Bible says?
“God is the judge.”
Jesus is God.
There is no "Lords day" in scripture other than "the day of the Lord" which refers to the time of the Tribulation. The Sabbath was directed at the Israelites and not demanded for those during this "age of grace" as seen in Romans 14:5.
>>Do you think it's OK to translate the NT into other languages, other than the original Greek?<<
The Holy Spirit directed the New Testament be written in the Koine Greek which was the common language of the day and could be understood by the greatest majority of people at that time. The Koine Greek is not the "common language" today but must be consulted to make the most accurate translation as is possible.
>>Do you think it's OK for the Bible to be formatted into chapters and verses?<<
I understand the thought process but also see where it causes confusion. Once again I find consulting the original Greek best with the help of the Holy Spirit for understanding.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Now, that does not preclude those who have studied certain languages, subjects from being taken into consideration. It does however require that we ultimately rely on revelation as to the meaning of the words in scripture.
>>Do you think it's OK to be married in a church? Do you think it's OK for the bride and groom to exchange rings?<<
Immaterial to the subject as those are not part of the worship of God. Having studied the ancient Jewish wedding practices I find that today's wedding practices have their roots in them.
What I'm saying is, OK, some of they may not have a really discipled and all-in relationship with Jesus (too many do not!) but some of them may just be dubious about what you mean by the term. They may think you mean some form of individualistic spiritual Lone Ranger-ism, i.e. the notion that you can be in Christ without being a member of His Body.
If you wittingly or unwittingly give them that impression, then right, you are speaking another language, and their eyes do just glaze over.
There's a little Catholic children's prayer book --- with sky of Italian blue on the cover, with the Good Shepherd carrying a little lamb in His arms, "close to His heart" --- called "Jesus and I". In my little papist sprout days, all the little Catholics received these when we were seen years old or so. It gently inculcated personal prayer and a child's sense of belonging to Him and being carried by Him and wanting Him to know all your secrets because He is your good Lord, rescuer from wolves and everlasting Friend.
And of course we learned to pray from our mothers and fathers at mealtime and bedtime, at least. And when praying for Him to make you a good little girl.
It doesn't always result in a mature faith later on. But it's always there, the ongoing invitation to let Jesus lift you up and give you that peace.
It's ginger from the grocery store I started with and they are not treated.
For what it's worth, this past summer I planted both seed potatoes and potatoes from the store that had sprouted and my best production was from the potatoes from the store. If the potatoes from the store sprout in the cupboard I cut them into pieces with at least two sprouts in each and plant em. Even late in the summer. Those late in summer at least produce small finger potatoes which are delicious.
There's plenty of evidence. Those prayers are just some.
If people choose to close their eyes to it, that can't be helped.
If you are a believer you ARE a member of the body of Christ. Joining an organization does not make you a member of the body of Christ. Trusting in Him alone does.
Our denominations have so much in common to think this discussion is anything less than cordial, when all is said and done. I always learn a lot. Thanks.
There is a common enemy, too, which we can pray all Christians are fighting, inside themselves and out, and winning.
I’ll give a shot at answering as well.
Nope.
Of course. People need to read Scripture in their own languages.
Yes. Chapter and verse notations in no way impugn the integrity of Scripture. They are merely for ease of finding passages. And no, for anyone who’s planning on going there, they’re not divinely inspired. I would expect God to do a MUCH BETTER job than whoever did it in the first place. ( I begin to believe the theory about someone doing it riding horseback)
Why not? God ordained marriage. Seems fitting to be a place to be married. Rings are nice visual reminders of the vows made, and are obvious for discouraging unwanted advances (for the most part)
ROFL Those two or one making the o in God makes my back hurt.
Now I am truly filled with admiration. My garden went to Hellengone last year because I couldn't weed or even adequately put down mulch. I told my dearest dear of a husband that we should just let Tennessee take it over (all 70 square feet) as a Wilderness Area. Sounds more respectable than Weedpatch.
I should try your butt crawling technique. I guess what I'll be doing this winter is reinforcing the seats AND knees of my pants.
“Does not destroy the temples, vestments, practices and other rituals and beliefs of pagans.”
Well, Sts. Boniface and Ansgar would disagree with you since they destroyed pagan shrines.
The Roman Emperors who became Christians confiscated pagan temples (all were public property anyway), threw out the pagan priests and priestesses, defaced pagan idols, etc.
St. Augustine exhorted Christians in Carthage to smash all the symbols of paganism they could find. MacMullen talks about this in his book, Christianizing The Roman Empire A.D.100-400 (Yale University Press, 1984).
Libanius, who most definitely was NOT a Christian described what happened in good detail from his point of view. He said Christian monks
“hasten to attack the temples with sticks and stones and bars of iron, and in some cases, disdaining these, with hands and feet. Then utter desolation follows, with the stripping of roofs, demolition of walls, the tearing down of statues and the overthrow of altars, and the priests must either keep quiet or die. After demolishing one, they scurry to another, and to a third, and trophy is piled on trophy, in contravention of the law. Such outrages occur even in the cities, but they are most common in the countryside. Many are the foes who perpetrate the separate attacks, but after their counteless crimes this scattered rabble congregates and they are in disgrace unless they have committed the foulest outrage...Temples, Sire, are the soul of the countryside: they mark the beginning of its settlement, and have been passed down through many generations to the men of today. In them the farming communities rest their hopes for husbands, wives, children, for their oxen and the soil they sow and plant. An estate that has suffered so has lost the inspiration of the peasantry together with their hopes, for they believe that their labour will be in vain once they are robbed of the gods who direct their labours to their due end. And if the land no longer enjoys the same care, neither can the yield match what it was before, and, if this be the case, the peasant is the poorer, and the revenue jeopardized.” Pro Templis (Oration XXX.8-10)
Charlemagne destroyed Saxon pagan Temples. The same was done by Saxon Christians two centuries later to the Sorbs and other Slavs east of the Elbe. Who do you think destroyed the pagan shrines of the Baltic? Catholic Christians did.
When the idols of Godmundham were burned who did it? Coifi, a Catholic convert, and Northumbria was converted to Christianity.
“As an example we could look at the Pantheon. It was a temple to all the gods of the pagans. Instead of destroying it as God commanded it was used as a Temple by Catholics.”
Used. Not built. Have you ever been there? First, it was a government building and not owned by the Church and only came into the Church’s possession when the Roman government failed. Second, no one wanted to destroy one the great architectural wonders of the ancient world. If you have not seen it you have no idea what an amazing building it is. Third, it would have taken many years - and that’s not an exaggeration - to destroy the building. Why do it when all you had to do is remove the idols, cleanse the building and consecrate it to proper Christian use?
“Instead of destroying it as God commanded it was used as a Temple by Catholics.”
We’re talking about after Jesus came and long after the conquest of Canaan.
“Another would be the vestments worn by priests. The pointed mitre worn by priests is the same as worn by priests to the pagan fish god Dagon.”
Nope. The Dagon ones you’re referring to were actually made to look like fish. No Catholic bishop wears a mitre that looks like a fish and miters have changed a number of times. If Western Catholic bishops wore crowns like the Eastern bishops you would probably make up some complaint about them too.
“The Catholic Church, by it’s own admission incorporated much of paganism under the guise of “baptising them”.”
That’s completely false. The Catholci Church has NEVER, EVER said it incorporated paganism. Not even once. We do have practices which were once practiced only by pagans in the western world - typical weddings for instance - yet no paganism from them was incorporated at all.
“That was strictly forbidden by God.”
And that’s why we never did it. You just keep falsely accusing us of having done it. Just like I think it is obvious that at any given moment you might accuse the Catholic Church of destroyed native, indigenous cultures and then a minute later complain that the Catholic Church has no history of destroying pagan temples and idols (which were important to native, indigenous cultures). No matter what the issue is you’ll probably put yourself on both sides of it as long as you can keep attacking the Catholic Church.
Yep! I arrange my rows so that I can sit in between them. Some I have in two foot wide raised beds made from 6 in boards. My spade only has a handle two feet long. Mostly use the hand spade in the garden and a hoe cut down to 3" wide and a 1' handle. I even put a tongue on a two wheeled wheel barrow so I can pull it behind my four wheeler.
“There’s plenty of evidence.”
No, so far there is none - no evidence has ever been produced here that shows the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is a god or that Catholics believe Mary is a god and worship her as a god. None. I have seen people post pictures and make crazy accusations, but that is not proof of what they claim. I assume that someone may resort to posting more of those pictures because he or she knows the anti-Catholic side lost this argument (again).
“Those prayers are just some.”
And yet none of them call on anyone to worship Mary as a god. Not a single one of them.
“If people choose to close their eyes to it, that can’t be helped.”
You mean like closing their eyes to the fact that Jesus is our Judge and actually going so far as to contradict scripture on that point, metmom? You mean like that? I noticed you avoided commenting on your false assertion that Jesus is NOT our Judge when scripture says He IS OUR JUDGE. Why would you do that? Remember, Acts 10:42.
Sometimes I post out of boredom, it's entertaining.
Maybe I learned too much from Brer Rabbit --UNCLE REMUS INITIATES THE LITTLE BOY
; > )
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