Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Elsie]

You are infinitely correct.

[Elsie]

BTW, no part of my argument rests on the Douay-Rheims or the Latin Vulgate tranlsations.

This smacks vaguely of MormonISM; when it's founder said; in Articles of Faith #8

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[Mrs. Don-o]

In exact words, He said call "NO MAN ON EARTH" your father. Not just religious teachers.

And in context -- I love context! --- he said:

But do not be called teacher
for One is your Teacher,
and you are all brothers.
Do not call anyone on earth your father
for One is your Father,
He who is in heaven.
Do not be called leaders;
for One is your Leader,
that is, Christ.

He was apparently making a point here other than forms of address or title, since His own Apostles and Martyrs didn't stop using the terms father, teacher, or leader. And it's right there in the NT. Looking at an even bigger context:

Look atthe words of our Lord from Luke 16:24

And he (the rich man) called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.”

Abraham is clearly a “religious leader.” And Jesus is not alone in referring to him as “father.” St. James refers to Abraham as “father” in James 2:21, while St. Paul refers to Abraham as “father” seven times in Romans 4:1-18. If you believe in the inspiration of Sacred Scripture, St. James and St. Paul cannot contradict Jesus in Matthew 23:9.

In I John 2:13-14, St. John refers to the leaders of the church in Ephesus to whom he is most likely writing as “fathers” twice. And notice he gives them the title “father.”

I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning…
Notice, he does not say they are “fathers” because they are married with children. They are “fathers,” spiritually speaking.

In Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, calls both Abraham and the elders of Jerusalem “father” in the same breath:

And the high priest said, “Is this so?” And Stephen said: “Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham…”

And in I Corinthians 4:14-15, St. Paul refers to himself as “father”:

I do not write this to make you ashamed,
but to admonish you as my beloved children.
For though you have countless guides in Christ,
you do not have many fathers.
For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

[Elsie]

The Catholic Church says that is NOT THE ONLY interpretation, and it should not be embraced to the exclusion of all other interpretations.

It DOES?

Got a link you'd like to provide us deluded folk?

[Elsie]

The Catholic Church says that is NOT THE ONLY interpretation, and it should not be embraced to the exclusion of all other interpretations.

So the 'church' cannot decide WHICH 'interpretation' is RIGHT?

Again I say...

HMMMmmm...

[Elsie]

I know there are Protestants who would say, “No!”.

And there are 'some' knights who say, "Ni!"

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Saying *mother of GOD* means *mother of GOD*.... Is God not the Trinity?... Following some other Catholics logic..." But don't attribute it to Catholics. That's what I object to: telling falsehoods about what the Catholic Church teaches.

OK? Don't do this anymore?

I'm not getting all huffy-snuffy and saying you can't or shouldn't express what you think is a logical inference or extrapolation. The objection is mis-attributing that to the Catholic Church.

See what I mean?

[Elsie]

Shouldn't you be more careful to to avoid falsehoods about other people's religious beliefs?

Hello!

When you guys say "Mother of GOD" all folks are going to think of the GODhead: Trinity.

You MUST be specific.

Since you are not; confusion as to what you REALLY mean is generated.

There are four things that COULD be said:

1. Mother of GOD the Father
2. Mother of GOD the Son (Jesus)
3. Mother of GOD the Holy Spirit
4. Mother of GOD

Now; I ask you; which one is the MOST correct?

[CynicalBear]

>>You think ANY Catholic is moronic enough to believe that the Trinity owes its existence to Mary?<<

Wow! Those vitriolic words from someone who calls himself a priest!! Oh well.

I didn't say they would believe it. The Catholics all the time tell us Jesus is "one person". In their Catechism they also believe that God is one. They also tell us Mary is the mother of God.

I can honestly tell you the Catholicism is the most dangerous religion on earth. It will one day incorporate all other religions. It is the religion could cause even the very elect to be deceived. And it is the religion that God said to "come out of her my people lest ye be partakers of her plagues".

[Elsie]

What an idiotic, malicious thing to say.

You are SO right!!!!

Let me fix it...

Heh, no wonder the Catholic church tells its constituents that PROTESTANTS are incapable of correctly interpreting Scripture.

[Elsie]

You are SO right again.

[ealgeone]

Ni!

but I want to sing,father. LOL!

[Elsie]

You can't give birth to parts. You give birth to a person.

If you've seen ME; you've seen the Father.

Not...

If you've seen ME; you've seen the my mom Mary.

[Elsie]

I wish for once, catholics would put all the cards on the table and quit with the manipulation of words.

Then they'd cease to be Catholic.

[Elsie]

Remember, Jesus is Mary's Savior. You can't have a savior without needing one.

BUT...

If you LIKE your Savior; you can keep Him.

[Elsie]

What's not "Apostolic" about that?

Nothing.

You've STILL to show us WHAT Philip said; NOT his 'authority' to say anything.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You are making a distinction without a difference, really. If we already know that Jesus Christ is one Person, and we know that at one point in time he was born of a woman, then this Divine Person, Son of God and Son of Mary, was born of Mary, therefore is her son, therefore she was His birth-giver --- His birth giver, of Him who is God.

We are not forbidden to think! And to distinguish between one thing another.

Mary: birth-giver. But not eternal source.

That's the distinction I ask you to keep in mind.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You use the word “Trinity”. Why? Why didn’t God inspire the writers of Scripture to use that word?

[Elsie]

I’m not the one denying that Mary is the mother of Jesus. The Catholic church is the one doing that."

It is no 'falsehood' to SHOW what the BIBLE actually says: "Mother of Jesus".

WHY Rome wants to ESCALATE that up to mother of GOD is beyond me.

Unless; it is to ESTABLISH the supposedly SINLESS nature of Mary.

---

A sinful mother could have given birth to a god that has come in the flesh;
but only a sinLESS mother could give birth to a GOD in the flesh.

[Elsie]

Is Jesus one Person or two?

Is GOD one person or three?