Replies

>>So without Tradition there would be no Canon of Scripture.<<

Second, it was God who preserved His word to us as He promised He would. For Catholics to try to take credit IS putting men over what is written. Catholics should keep in mind that God used Judas, Balaam's donkey, and many evil people to bring forth His will. He will also use the anti Christ during the tribulation. If He used the Catholic Church to bring His word forward it is no reflection on the correctness of the Catholic Church.

>>What he knew about Christ, he got from the Apostolic preaching. Oral Tradition.<<

Now please prove from an infallible source that everything the Catholic Church teaches today is what the apostles taught that you call "tradition".

>>Tradition is not just some unnatural "growth" or tumor that got attached to the Church in the ages after the Gospels were written.<<

It most certainly is if what the Catholic Church teaches wasn't taught by the apostles. Paul wrote that if someone teaches something they didn't that person was to be considered accursed. Not one Catholic to date has shown proof that the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.

>>Thanks be to God.<<

You type that it seems as an afterthought. After giving credit to the Catholic Church. Let me remind you that God will use the anti Christ in order for Christ to return. Like I said, if God used the Catholic Church to bring His gospel forward it is no indication that the Catholic Church is true to that word today because it most certainly is not.

The concept of today's "tradition" in the Catholic Church is nothing but a power grab to keep the followers in line and subjected to them. Their concept of "tradition" does NOT go back to the apostles but is only a ruse to adjust their teaching as time goes on.

You have never proved your points; in fact you have never ever suggested a method by which your points could be proved. For example:

"Peter already considered Paul's writings scripture."

Yes he did. Such a determination would have to be made by somebody with the authority to do so and Peter certainly did. This is precisely the authority he had from Christ when he gave him the power of the keys" and gave him the Petrine ministry of "confirming the brethren." It's the strongest Catholic point you could have made.

Nevetheless, St. Peter died in the mid-60's, before the whole New Testament was even written, and somebody (some individual or some group) would have to assume that authority to determine what was Holy Scripture. He had to have had a successor in this, because the canon was not yet closed.

So we can see how that happened historically: through the practices of the churches (liturgical) and the confirming declarations of councils and synods (hierarchical). Because obviously you can't have an infallible canon of Scripture unless you have somebody (or somebodies) who can make an infallible determination. And this would necessarily be after the death of the last Apostle (John, d. 100 AD), because as lng as there was a living Apostle, you didn't know if he was going to write something else which would be added to the Canon.

"Second, it was God who preserved His word to us as He promised He would."

Yes, He did. Historically, He did this through the Catholic Church.

" For Catholics to try to take credit IS putting men over what is written. Catholics should keep in mind that God used Judas, Balaam's donkey, and many evil people to bring forth His will."

LOL! Absolutely! It's not at all anomalous to put the Catholic Church in the same category as Balaam's ass. God could do this any way He chose. And the way He chose must be the best way to do it. He chose to do it through His Church.

Despite their (and your and my) various asinine tendencies. It's still His Church.

Now there is a perfect example of going above what is written. First of all, it's been shown over and over in these threads that what was considered scripture was established long before there was a Catholic Church. Peter already considered Paul's writings scripture.

Second, it was God who preserved His word to us as He promised He would. For Catholics to try to take credit IS putting men over what is written. Catholics should keep in mind that God used Judas, Balaam's donkey, and many evil people to bring forth His will. He will also use the anti Christ during the tribulation. If He used the Catholic Church to bring His word forward it is no reflection on the correctness of the Catholic Church.

There is no table if contents in the Bible except by tradition. Peter did not mention which of Paul's writings he had in mind. 2 Peter, where it is written, was one if the NT books late to be universally accepted.
I find the argument the LORD Jesus Christ preserved the holy apostolic scriptures untenable except one admit God preserved the holy catholic apostolic church.

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;