Posted on 11/13/2014 8:53:33 AM PST by greyfoxx39
As the new essay unintentionally hits the fan, Mormons are reeling and responding with their classic denials, claim of victim-hood and their typical repertoire of logical fallacies.
Soon, their favorite defender, the straw man argument will be in full regalia, culminating in a passive aggressive indirect platitude statement (such as doubt your doubts, you have to go around the BOM, etc.) in the next general conference to which members will cling to for life.
Already I have been contacted by members with their "straw man babies". So I have compiled a list of the quorum of the 15 straw men arguments that Mormons are making about this already:
1) Its not that some girls were married back then at age 14. Its that she was NOT married to Joseph, since he was married to another person who was not aware of the situation. 14 years old were by no means older back then. He had sex with his foster daughter, period. He has sex with the wives of men who he sent away on missions and made the women lie about their liaisons, full stop.
2) Joseph was forced to practice it by an angry angel. Joseph must have been one hell of seer to know to start practicing it before the revelation AND the angry angel came. Its that none of the 40 women, suspiciously, including Emma, ever saw the angry angel. It's that he didn't have 40 wives, he had one, and 39 KNOWN affairs that he spend most of his time and efforts trying to conceal.
3) Its not that the church is being "honest". Its that there is a term for when before you are being honest, for 180+ years.
4) Its not that some marriages MAY not have had sex, its that some did. Its that some were married to other men and some were children. Its that the ones that turned him down were destroyed and shunned. Its that all were coerced or forced to practice it. It's that the church has, for the past 180 years, trying to collect, destroy, deny or file away any reference to these relationships being physical.
5) Its not that it's OK because Emma accepted it and felt peace about it, its that Joseph got her best friend pregnant and did not tell Emma, and she in turn threw her pregnant friend down the stairs and she miscarried, maybe the peace came after that, or after she threw Fanny Algers on the street. Maybe the peace came after she left the church.
6) Its not that people are demanding that Joseph smith be perfect, its that maybe a convicted con-man, polygamist, bank defrauder, fugitive, liar, pedophile, wife-thief, serial adulterer, plagiarist and murderer might not be the best person to trust with a story about an invisible gold book. it was Jesus when speaking on how to tell false prophets that said "by their fruits ye shall know them"...well, here's your sign.
7) Its not that it was about raising children, or marrying a virgin, or being approved by the first wife, or about being more women than men or that it was OK after 1834 because NONE of those applied to Joseph.
8) Its not that it is OK because it was a long time ago. Its that it happened at all. Its that those girls were children. Its that it was a revelation and then he denied over and over and in May 1844 (he had 30+ wives by then) he offered to prove his accusers to be perjurers and to provide (falsified) affidavits.
9) Its not OK because you have a testimony. Its that your testimony is based on a fictitious character carefully created by the church media department. If you have a testimony, you dont know the real Joseph.
10) Its not about the church discontinuing the practice by the commandment of God. It was that they were forced to by the US government and therefore it shows that the church will change its history, doctrine, practices, and policies to make sure that the corporation survives.
11) Its not that it is not practiced now. Its that Gordon Hinckley lied on national TV a few years ago and said it was only practiced after they came out West and it was not doctrinal. Well, the thing is that an angel appearing 3 times is pretty doctrinal and so is The DOCTRINE and COVENANTS,which is canonized doctrine. It's that thousands of now ex-Mormons were excommunicated, attacked, gas-lighted, called names and shunned for even suggesting what these essays contain.
12) Its not that its a fleck of history. Its that thousands of children suffer in sexual relationships with adults in cults TODAY because of the practices and doctrines you cowardly failed to address, up until now, and which your founders taught as a requirement to enter heaven.
13) Its not about polygamy; its about your church pretending that they are the defender of monogamous marriage, between one man and one woman as stating that this has always been so. Its that you are stepping on the civil rights of others, just like you did those women, all in the name of religion. You can't claim those relationships to be marriages and at the same time, use your sudden love for the law, to deny other people their right to marry, so, pick a side.
14) It's not that the church has abandoned it. Its that the concept of men forcing women and children into their bed using revelation is "a thing" in your doctrine. Its about Warren Jeffs being JUST like Joseph Smith. He did not die an innocent lamb at the hands of evil men, he died because he slept with children and other men's wives, he died because he violated masonic oaths, he died because when his adultery was exposed by his former close associate, whose wife he tried to shag, he destroyed the printing press. It's that men can be sealed to more than one woman TODAY in the temple and women can't do the same.
15) It is not that the media and world does not understand Mormonism; its that you dont understand Mormonism.
Ok, thanks.
I wonder why on this thread, the exposure of Smith's falseness is such a bother to some posters...even those who claim to not be mormons? Also, the blanket "mormons are just the nicest people" claim is nothing but propaganda.
We have no idea if this entire story is a fable, the truth or parts of both. It's on the Internet, that's all.
I think that it might be a teenager guy who was bored outta his gourd and made something up. Ever since the Internet spawned its wings, everybody is privy to everything on the Internet and there is an much truth on IT as there is in any book, newspaper, personal speaker or any media.
WHY trust these stories as fact? I sure don't.
My goodness, I'm sounding as cynical as if. :o)
what I meant by single leader, was like a pope, or brigham young, or joseph smith, soemone who is above rebuke
individual protestant leaders of individual churches, I am sure there was more than one who was psycho, but protestantism never had a single entity leading it, except for the Church of England
THEY persecuted Baptists and Puritans, not just Catholics
My Great Great Grandmother was a Baptist in Northern Ireland, she got it from all sides, that is why she moved to Canada
but protestantism never had a single entity leading it, except for the Church of England
Hell yes, I’ll defend Mormonism.
Really?
Both Abraham and his grandson Jacob were polygamists.
Have you EVER had either of the three?
Your chosen religion group doesn't.
Some Mormons undoubtedly become Christians, and evidently leave the Mormon sect they were members of behind.
(Thanks to delacort for compiling this list)
To your credit; you didn't.
You defended the BELIVERS of it.
So...
Is it a FALSE gospel or not?
Yes. And whenever I have X-rays, I am obliged to explain the lead bullet fragments that remain in my body from my encounter with him. Been there, done that.
Yet, when it is posted, and dissected one sentence at a time; they can point to NOTHING that is wrong!
They can complain about the Trinity; because they have no idea what is in their OWN scriptures!
Mormon 7:7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
An 1830 statement titled "Testimony of Three Witnesses"one statement signed by three men rather than three separate statementswas published at the end of the first edition of the Book of Mormon:
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvellous [sic] in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Well; they sure will NOT 'defend' Baptists!
They are clumped right together with all Protestants.
If you can get ANY Mormon to deny the things that are about to be posted; please; let me know!
Here ya go...
(You DID catch this; right??)
All right, Mormons...
Do you affirm what's been quoted or deny it?
Joseph was 14 when first visited by...
The Book of MORMON:THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHICHAPTER 224 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Doctrines and Covenants:49:16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one awife, and they twain shall be bone flesh, and all this that the cearth might answer the end of its creation;
The BIBLE:2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1 Timothy 3:2-3
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
I’ll assume it ain’t the Mormon’s fault...
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