Posted on 11/13/2014 8:53:33 AM PST by greyfoxx39
As the new essay unintentionally hits the fan, Mormons are reeling and responding with their classic denials, claim of victim-hood and their typical repertoire of logical fallacies.
Soon, their favorite defender, the straw man argument will be in full regalia, culminating in a passive aggressive indirect platitude statement (such as doubt your doubts, you have to go around the BOM, etc.) in the next general conference to which members will cling to for life.
Already I have been contacted by members with their "straw man babies". So I have compiled a list of the quorum of the 15 straw men arguments that Mormons are making about this already:
1) It’s not that some girls were married “back then” at age 14. It’s that she was NOT married to Joseph, since he was married to another person who was not aware of the situation. 14 years old were by no means older back then. He had sex with his foster daughter, period. He has sex with the wives of men who he sent away on missions and made the women lie about their liaisons, full stop.
2) Joseph was forced to practice it by an angry angel. Joseph must have been one hell of seer to know to start practicing it before the revelation AND the angry angel came. It’s that none of the 40 women, suspiciously, including Emma, ever saw the angry angel. It's that he didn't have 40 wives, he had one, and 39 KNOWN affairs that he spend most of his time and efforts trying to conceal.
3) It’s not that the church is being "honest". It’s that there is a term for when before you are being honest, for 180+ years.
4) It’s not that some marriages MAY not have had sex, it’s that some did. It’s that some were married to other men and some were children. It’s that the ones that turned him down were destroyed and shunned. It’s that all were coerced or forced to practice it. It's that the church has, for the past 180 years, trying to collect, destroy, deny or file away any reference to these relationships being physical.
5) It’s not that it's OK because Emma accepted it and felt peace about it, it’s that Joseph got her best friend pregnant and did not tell Emma, and she in turn threw her pregnant friend down the stairs and she miscarried, maybe the peace came after that, or after she threw Fanny Algers on the street. Maybe the peace came after she left the church.
6) It’s not that people are demanding that Joseph smith be perfect, it’s that maybe a convicted con-man, polygamist, bank defrauder, fugitive, liar, pedophile, wife-thief, serial adulterer, plagiarist and murderer might not be the best person to trust with a story about an invisible gold book. it was Jesus when speaking on how to tell false prophets that said "by their fruits ye shall know them"...well, here's your sign.
7) It’s not that it was about raising children, or marrying a virgin, or being approved by the first wife, or about being more women than men or that it was OK after 1834…because NONE of those applied to Joseph.
8) It’s not that it is OK because “it was a long time ago”. It’s that it happened at all. It’s that those girls were children. It’s that it was a revelation and then he denied over and over and in May 1844 (he had 30+ wives by then) he offered to prove his accusers to be perjurers and to provide (falsified) affidavits.
9) It’s not OK because you have a testimony. It’s that your testimony is based on a fictitious character carefully created by the church media department. If you have a testimony, you don’t know the real Joseph.
10) It’s not about the church discontinuing the practice by the commandment of God. It was that they were forced to by the US government and therefore it shows that the church will change its history, doctrine, practices, and policies to make sure that the corporation survives.
11) It’s not that it is not practiced now. It’s that Gordon Hinckley lied on national TV a few years ago and said it was only practiced after they came out West and it was not doctrinal. Well, the thing is that an angel appearing 3 times is pretty doctrinal and so is The DOCTRINE and COVENANTS,which is canonized doctrine. It's that thousands of now ex-Mormons were excommunicated, attacked, gas-lighted, called names and shunned for even suggesting what these essays contain.
12) It’s not that it’s a fleck of history. It’s that thousands of children suffer in sexual relationships with adults in cults TODAY because of the practices and doctrines you cowardly failed to address, up until now, and which your founders taught as a requirement to enter heaven.
13) It’s not about polygamy; it’s about your church pretending that they are the defender of monogamous marriage, between one man and one woman as stating that this has always been so. It’s that you are stepping on the civil rights of others, just like you did those women, all in the name of religion. You can't claim those relationships to be marriages and at the same time, use your sudden love for the law, to deny other people their right to marry, so, pick a side.
14) It's not that the church has abandoned it. It’s that the concept of men forcing women and children into their bed using revelation is "a thing" in your doctrine. It’s about Warren Jeffs being JUST like Joseph Smith. He did not die an innocent lamb at the hands of evil men, he died because he slept with children and other men's wives, he died because he violated masonic oaths, he died because when his adultery was exposed by his former close associate, whose wife he tried to shag, he destroyed the printing press. It's that men can be sealed to more than one woman TODAY in the temple and women can't do the same.
15) It is not that the media and world does not understand Mormonism; it’s that you don’t understand Mormonism.
Heh. Maybe the prison system is small to begin with. I don’t know. That’s an odd metric to use. Per capita is more persuasive.
People shouldn't run away from the past or pretend bad things didn't happen.
Mohammed married and raped a child. His behavior is at the very core of Islam. Should we not address that?
Now Joseph Smith wasn't quite like Mohammed but he did charm/lied his way into the beds of some very young women. The very core of Mormonism is plural marriage. Because of Joseph Smith, people in the FLDS are marrying underage girls. How long before America opens the doors to polygamy? Then, how long will it take before the LDS starts that practice up again?
NOPE!
I was born into and raised in mormonism. I personally have known mormons who were/are drunks, wife beaters, child molesters (knew one from personal experience, a high mormon priest) thieves (bad checks) and frauds.
The following link is to an article in a BYU source, a mormon university.
Affinity fraud continues to plague Utahns and Mormons
The state with the highest rate of affinity fraud is Utah, where more than 60 percent of its population belongs to the LDS Church. The FBI calculates that there were more than 4,400 victims in 2012 with a net loss of $1.4 billion. It’s not that LDS Church members and Utahns haven’t been warned. In 1982, then BYU President Jeffrey R. Holland warned students about such schemes. Warnings have appeared many times over the years in conferences and church publications with a similar theme — if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
NOTE: "If it sounds too good to be true"...and many people fall for the sounds good "mormons are just the "nicest people" soundbite!
Yes.
To me it’s clear.
When I heard Glen Beck hinting at accepting gay marriage the membership angle immediately struck me.
Ah well, I bow to your experience. I’d still prefer a Mormon neighbor to an Islamic or Son of Obama, though.
You completely missed my point in both posts.
Never mind.
The government representation damned sure does NOT mean I accept a lot of what it is cramming down my throat. Example no. 1...Obama.
protestants never had a single leader who ordered the mass murders
Protestants also never had an angel come down and speak to anyone and bring another gospel just exactly like the warning in Galatians chapter one, either
or just like Mohammed did, in fact, Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common
And protestants today are most likely apostate, I will concede that, but Baptist type churches are as old as Christianity itself, they are your best shot for finding a Bible believig church, an Independant Baptist, Bible or Bretheren church
Sounds like he and Mohammed would get along real well. Bet they go on a lot of double dates together in Hell.
The fruits of Mormonism are the FLDS and polygamy. Rotten fruit as far as I’m concerned.
protestants never had a single leader who ordered the mass murders
I like the Baptist Church.
Creed? Nuff said.
So the Nicene is right out then?
Hell yes, I'll defend Mormonism. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist who has known a good many Mormons.
To a man, they were all good, honest, loyal and hard working people. I never heard one of them say anything that could remotely be considered back stabbing. Nor would they tolerate anyone else engaging in gossip or back-stabbing.
One guy I knew was actually appalled when someone suggested a way to cheat on his taxes.
By their actions alone they comport themselves the way a Christian should. They don't try to shove their beliefs down your throat. All they ask is to be allowed to worship in according to their faith.
I've read the B.o.M. and the D & C as well as the P.o.G.P. I don't agree with everything they believe, but I will defend their right to believe it.
And about the anonymous writer’s spirit.
If one is really willing to critique one's understanding of what they profess to believe, then they should view it all with a critical eye.
At the time of my joining FR, I was an inactive, jack mormon. I used to come into the mormon threads with a view similar to many of the critics here. Accused the Christians here of many things...
But at some point, my opinion changed once I started to read the posts to learn, not to be offended. IOW, I got over myself and grew a hide vs. having rice paper thinskin.
Once I did that, my curiousity about what I professed to believe and most importantly, what I thought I believed garnered greater scrutiny.
As a result of the "presentation" and the "spirit" in which the information was presented, I left mormonism. I use much of what I learn here to witness to my family and friends. I wish I could say that I have been successful, but I'm at least planting seeds.
So for those who think that posting the truth in a bit of a snarky manner is offensive I say, get over yourselves. It is the truth, sometimes a 2x4 is the right tool to get through to folks, sometimes not.
Plus, internet searches on mormonism will include these threads where very knowledgeable Christians and ex-mormons are posting factual information that the LDS has kept under wraps since its inception.
Actually, for the males, it’s usually 2 years...sigh.
Nicene is nice, as is the Apostle’s , but there are only a ‘select’ few that regularly use the word ‘creed.’ We recognize them even when they obfuscate. Oh yes, and the only ‘creed’ those select few can name is the Nicene which they’ve been taught is naughty in the extreme.
I don't know of anyone here advocating denying mormons their right to believe in or practice their religion. Can you offer some examples to support that assertion?
If anything, their sending of ~70k missionaries into the world claiming that; all of Christianity is apostate, that God is a perfected human, that God is right now, engaged in celestial sex with his harem of wives to keep the planet populated, that men can attain Godhood and eventually have their own planet to rule over, etc. [With the exception of the first point, these last points aren't taught by the missionaries, milk before meat. These are learned once one has become a more devout and loyal member.] deserves rebuttal by right-minded Christians, not support.
Sorry if a handful of ex-mormons and Christians decide to debate and discuss the merits of their doctrine upsets anyone. But if not on this forum, there are many others.
For those who are faithful in presenting the truth about mormonism, I am grateful...they are trying to gather in God's lost sheep.
Remember the Joseph Fielding Smith statement: “Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false…”– President Joseph Fielding Smith
Just thought I’d post this here.
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