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Sources of the Protestant Devolution
Catholic Stand ^ | November 6, 2014 | Matthew Tyson

Posted on 11/06/2014 2:29:33 PM PST by NYer

In June of this year, the largest Presbyterian denomination in America voted to allow their clergy to perform same-sex “marriages” within the church, thus joining the ranks of other Protestant denominations, such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Episcopalian Church, and United Church of Christ.

This “evolution” of theology and “modernizing” of church doctrine is a trend that I predict we’ll continue to see in non-Catholic Christian circles for years to come, and not just with marriage. Today, nearly all Protestant denominations support and even advocate the use of artificial birth control, and many allow at least some level of support for abortion.

Of course, not all Protestants are willing to “move with the times”, so to speak; there remains, especially among the more conservative groups, quite a bit of dissent. However, it cannot be denied that many modern day Protestant denominations are falling further into the depths of secularism.

While it pains me to see Christians turning their backs on the sanctity of life and marriage, I have to admit that whenever the media lights up with news of another Protestant church endorsing an otherwise wholly unchristian act, I find myself entirely unsurprised.

The reason for my utter lack of shock lies, interestingly enough, within two of the critical tenants of Protestant Theology: the doctrines of sola scriptura (scripture alone) and sola fide (faith alone).

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide

As Catholics, the Bible is not our sole source of authority, nor was the Catholic Church based upon it. In fact, what we now call “The Bible” — the collected Old Testament and New Testament writings — was put together by the Church herself, and is meant to enrich and support our doctrine and Tradition.

(Consider too that the Gospel is the written testimony of the teachings of the apostles, which, due to apostolic tradition and the God-given teaching authority of the Church, precedes the written text. Thus, any authority of the Scriptures is derived from the recognition of the Church.)

Yet, the Protestant Reformation severed the Tradition from the Bible, and put all other authorities beneath it. By doing so, they created a type of religious relativism (unwittingly, I’m sure) that opened the door for an “anything goes” mentality. So long, of course, as it can be found — or not found — in the scriptures.

For years, sola scriptura was a major weapon against Catholic theology, claiming that our practices were either absent or directly forbidden by Sacred Scripture. However, since the latter part of the 20th century, the charges that “Jesus never said (x)” or “That’s not in the Bible” have turned on themselves and have now become, “Jesus never said (x) was wrong, so that means (x) must be okay.”

This idea blends well with many in my generation, the millennials, who wish to hold on to some shred of spirituality but cannot bring themselves to relinquish the desires of the flesh. It is also a base notion of “Progressive Christianity”, which is basically the feel-good parts of following Christ without any actual sacrifice.

The same problem goes for sola fide. Though the only place in the Bible where the words “faith” and “alone” appear next to one another is in James 2:24 (“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”), it still remains a significant tenant of Protestant Christianity. However, much like sola scriptura, it has seemingly evolved into an even more bastardized version of itself that states, “As long as I’m a good person and believe in Jesus, I’m okay.”

The Beginning of the End?

Now, understand, I’m not among the ilk who believe that Protestants can’t go to Heaven, though the path is significantly more challenging (and not in a “take up your cross” kind of way). I do believe, however, that Christianity was never meant go in this direction. And I certainly believe that, should things continue in the manner they’re going for the modern-day Protestants, they’ll eventually have nothing left to call Christian at all.

Of course, perhaps that’s the only logical conclusion Protestantism could possibly come to. It is, after all, a theologically incomplete Christianity; and perhaps that is why it has such difficulty standing the test of time. Consider the continuous splintering Protestantism has seen since the days of Luther, that continues today. Sooner or later, it will be dust; and displaced Christians will be left with two choices: return to Holy Catholic Church or give themselves to the world.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; gaymarriage; homosexualagenda; protestant; samesexmarriage; solafide; solascriptura
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To: Texas Songwriter

John wrote this approximately in the year 100. I do not believe it is referring to medieval happenings but rather the blood of the Catholic martyrs who were being killed by Nero of the Roman Empire.


141 posted on 11/06/2014 7:48:46 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Moonmad27
Amen! Once you see the light of the glorious gospel of the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and you KNOW you have eternal life, what possible reason is there to return to an empty religion that can only promise a hope that you might make it if you do everything they tell you to do?

    For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (Gal. 5:1)

142 posted on 11/06/2014 7:53:26 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: wardaddy
Time off in Purgatory? ☺
143 posted on 11/06/2014 7:54:28 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Rashputin; kosciusko51
Protestant folks accept the anti-Christ Pharisee Approved Luther subset of Scripture rather than the entire Old Testament, therefore they agree with the Pharisees.

You mean like the same one that those heretical rascals Jerome, Athanasius, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Melito of Sardis, Origen, St. Hilary of Poitiers, Euesibius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Rufinus and even a number of RC prelates going into TRENT held to??? Funny how some RCs never seem to understand that Luther was FAR from the first or only one to reject the Deuterocanonicals (Second canon) as belonging with the universally agreed inspired books.

144 posted on 11/06/2014 8:12:45 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: af_vet_1981
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Thank you. I will read through those verses again.

I went to lie down for awhile and thought of a neat article I'd read recently about Israel finding the remnants of an old Roman garrison where the occupants may have included families and were Christian. It was part of a modern prison, so the prisoners were tasked with carefully uncovering some beautiful mosaics that had been buried for centuries.

Holy Land's 'oldest church' found at Armageddon

Something we can all agree on. Amazing, from 2005 but I didn't hear of it until this year and it could have been due to an article here at FR.

Right now on page 1 there is an article about a mosaic in Turkey (synchronicity anyone?):

New Mosaics Unearthed in Ancient City of Zeugma

145 posted on 11/06/2014 8:15:20 PM PST by Aliska
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To: Tao Yin; Biggirl
The apostolic letters were written to various churches. The churches shared their letters with other churches. Why thank the RCC?

The Bible does not have a single author – it is a collection of 73 books which were written by many different authors over a long period of time. It is divided into two main sections – the Old Testament and the New. The Old Testament is the Jewish Scriptures which were used by faithful Jews before the time of Christ. The New Testament consists of books and letters written by the early Christians.

The canon (list of books) of the Old Testament was not formally fixed and varied a great deal between different groups of faithful Jews. The Pharisees, Sadducees, Samaritans and other groups all had different lists of books which they considered to be Sacred Scripture, although there was agreement on the core of which books were part of the canon. Christians have the current 46 book Old Testament because this was the canon used by the leaders of the early Christian Church; the apostles and their followers. This canon was found in a Greek translation of the Scriptures known as the Septuagint. This was the version used by very many Jews in the first century.

The assemblage of the New Testament is a very interesting process and a highly complex one. It can, however, by summarized relatively simply as follows.

Various Christians wrote books explaining the history of the Christian Church (including Gospels about the life of Christ and more general histories such as the Acts of the Apostles) and letters addressed to specific communities and persons (such as the letters of Saint Paul) and also what are best considered to be “open letters” (such as Hebrews). There were hundreds of different documents circulating around, all of them purporting to the authentic Christian teaching and accurate history and doctrine.

However, many of these documents were not what they claimed to be – they were forgeries not written by the people whose names they bore, or were heretical documents advancing novel notions about Christ. Some of these documents have survived today – examples are the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas. Neither of these documents were written by their alleged authors – they are late forgeries designed to cash in on the success and popularity of Christianity.

Out of all these hundreds of documents – many of them forgeries – the current 27 book New Testament appeared. This process took a long time – roughly 300 years went by from the writing of the last book of the New Testament (Revelation) until the list was finalized.

The list was compiled by the bishops of the Catholic Church. Initially, local canons were assembled by individual bishops. These canons were lists of books which could be read aloud in Churches at Mass. Despite the fact that these canons were independently assembled they bore a great deal of similarity to each other – because the Catholic bishops were all using the same criteria to determine which books should be included. They looked to see if the books were written by an apostle or someone who was reporting the words of an apostle. They checked to see how much the book was being used by other bishops and priests in their Masses, and also looked at how often the book was quoted by the Church Fathers in their writings. Only those books which “scored” favorably on all three of these criteria made it into their canons.

In the early fourth century Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire and it became possible for the bishops to meet without being imprisoned or killed by the pagan authorities. Beginning in the late fourth century and continuing until the very early fifth century the Catholic Church met at a number of councils where the canon of the Bible was debated. These councils produced canons which were identical to the current 73 book Roman Catholic canon.

As can clearly be seen the canon of the Bible was produced by the Catholic Church. The Church also existed long before the Bible – it was the early fifth century before the Bible existed as we might recognize it today, and none of the books of the Bible were even written until around 50 AD. But the Catholic Church began 20 years earlier, at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

The Christians who wrote the New Testament were Catholic – they were Catholic for two reasons. One, they believed everything which the current Catholic Church (and only the Catholic Church) teaches (as is shown by the writings of the Church Fathers). And they were Catholic because there was no other church at the time. Myths such as the “Trail of Blood” simply do not hold water – the Catholic Church was, quite literally, the only game in town.

Accordingly, the Bible can be considered to be two things – it is younger than the Catholic Church and it is the product of the Catholic Church. This means that the Bible is not the sole rule of faith for Christians, but rather “the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth” as it says in I Timothy 3:15.

Does this help to explain the expression?

146 posted on 11/06/2014 8:22:45 PM PST by NYer ("You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears." James 4:14)
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To: CynicalBear

God should have know about the USA, but nowhere does the Bible mention it. No. I just don’t think Revelation is all about the Catholic Church.


147 posted on 11/06/2014 8:27:21 PM PST by virgil (The evil that men do lives after them)
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To: DaveyB
The author misses the point of the 5 solas. The protestants he is concerned about did not apostatize because they held to the five solas, but because they abandoned them. Roman Catholics have little to strut about as well, they have their scandals, their homo-lobby and their ongoing inclusion of the likes of Nancy Peolsi. This schadenfreude is to the author's shame.

you compare some teachings of protestantism with the illicit actions of a very few bad apples in the Catholic church....VERY poor analogy...

148 posted on 11/06/2014 8:28:15 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Biggirl
In other words, THANK the RCC for giving to the world the Holy Bible.

You mean that book that Roman Catholicism claims is not what the church is based on? The one that they state is not needed to establish their authority or that of her doctrines? The same book that existed centuries BEFORE there even was a Roman Catholic church? That book which for centuries was forbidden to be read by the common man? Which "Bible" is it that everyone is supposed to thank you RCs for?

149 posted on 11/06/2014 8:29:51 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation

Because as Christ Loves Us We Love You and therefore must attempt to show you the truth of the BIBLE.

Galatians 1:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!


150 posted on 11/06/2014 8:32:50 PM PST by mrobisr
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To: kaehurowing
I know Catholics think popes are chosen by the Holy Spirit, but you only have to go back to the Middle Ages and Renaissance to find there were some pretty corrupt popes.

percentage wise, Catholics are doing great in electing the Pope....1/12th of the men that Jesus personally selected as apostles didn't make the grade...

151 posted on 11/06/2014 8:35:30 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: CynicalBear

No. John was referring to Rome and it’s emperors. The Apocalypse was written during a time of Christian persecution by Rome.


152 posted on 11/06/2014 8:45:01 PM PST by virgil (The evil that men do lives after them)
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To: Biggirl

Almighty God saved his Own Word! I feel so sorry for you that you are so lost in a denomination that you have lost sight that God does his work through all people and doesn’t need any of US.

Daniel 4:35 New International Version (NIV)

35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”

Isaiah 64:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Acts 17:24-25 New International Version (NIV)

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.


153 posted on 11/06/2014 8:48:15 PM PST by mrobisr
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To: NYer; Tao Yin; Biggirl
Then there is the more accurate and objective history of how we got the Bible. The one that shows the Christian church was in submission to the word of God and not the other way around. From The Formation of the New Testament Canon:

IN ORDER to obtain a correct understanding of what is called the formation of the Canon of the New Testament, it is necessary to begin by fixing very firmly in our minds one fact which is obvious enough when attention is once called to it. That is, that the Christian church did not require to form for itself the idea of a “ canon,” — or, as we should more commonly call it, of a “Bible,” — that is, of a collection of books given of God to be the authoritative rule of faith and practice. It inherited this idea from the Jewish church, along with the thing itself, the Jewish Scriptures, or the “ Canon of the Old Testament.” The church did not grow up by natural law: it was founded. And the authoritative teachers sent forth by Christ to found His church, carried with them, as their most precious possession, a body of divine Scriptures, which they imposed on the church that they founded as its code of law. No reader of the New Testament can need proof of this; on every page of that book is spread the evidence that from the very beginning the Old Testament was as cordially recognized as law by the Christian as by the Jew. The Christian church thus was never without a “Bible” or a “canon.”

But the Old Testament books were not the only ones which the apostles (by Christ’s own appointment the authoritative founders of the church) imposed upon the infant churches, as their authoritative rule of faith and practice. No more authority dwelt in the prophets of the old covenant than in themselves, the apostles, who had been “made sufficient as ministers of a new covenant “; for (as one of themselves argued) “if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.” Accordingly not only was the gospel they delivered, in their own estimation, itself a divine revelation, but it was also preached “in the Holy Ghost” (I Pet. i. 12); not merely the matter of it, but the very words in which it was clothed were “of the Holy Spirit” (I Cor. ii. 13). Their own commands were, therefore, of divine authority (I Thess. iv. 2), and their writings were the depository of these commands (II Thess. ii. 15). “If any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle,” says Paul to one church (II Thess. iii. 14), “note that man, that ye have no company with him.” To another he makes it the test of a Spirit-led man to recognize that what he was writing to them was “the commandments of the Lord” (I Cor. xiv. 37). Inevitably, such writings, making so awful a claim on their acceptance, were received by the infant churches as of a quality equal to that of the old “Bible “; placed alongside of its older books as an additional part of the one law of God; and read as such in their meetings for worship — a practice which moreover was required by the apostles (I Thess. v. 27; Col. iv. 16; Rev. 1. 3). In the apprehension, therefore, of the earliest churches, the “Scriptures” were not a closed but an increasing “canon.” Such they had been from the beginning, as they gradually grew in number from Moses to Malachi; and such they were to continue as long as there should remain among the churches “men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

We say that this immediate placing of the new books — given the church under the seal of apostolic authority — among the Scriptures already established as such, was inevitable. It is also historically evinced from the very beginning. Thus the apostle Peter, writing in A.D. 68, speaks of Paul’s numerous letters not in contrast with the Scriptures, but as among the Scriptures and in contrast with “the other Scriptures” (II Pet. iii. 16) — that is, of course, those of the Old Testament. In like manner the apostle Paul combines, as if it were the most natural thing in the world, the book of Deuteronomy and the Gospel of Luke under the common head of “Scripture” (I Tim. v. 18): “For the Scripture saith, ‘Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn’ [Deut. xxv. 4]; and, ‘The laborer is worthy of his hire’” (Luke x. 7). The line of such quotations is never broken in Christian literature. Polycarp (c. 12) in A.D. 115 unites the Psalms and Ephesians in exactly similar manner: “In the sacred books, . . . as it is said in these Scriptures, ‘Be ye angry and sin not,’ and ‘Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.’” So, a few years later, the so-called second letter of Clement, after quoting Isaiah, adds (ii. 4): “And another Scripture, however, says, ‘I came not to call the righteous, but sinners’” — quoting from Matthew, a book which Barnabas (circa 97-106 A.D.) had already adduced as Scripture. After this such quotations are common.

What needs emphasis at present about these facts is that they obviously are not evidences of a gradually-heightening estimate of the New Testament books, originally received on a lower level and just beginning to be tentatively accounted Scripture; they are conclusive evidences rather of the estimation of the New Testament books from the very beginning as Scripture, and of their attachment as Scripture to the other Scriptures already in hand. The early Christians did not, then, first form a rival “canon” of “new books” which came only gradually to be accounted as of equal divinity and authority with the “old books”; they received new book after new book from the apostolical circle, as equally” Scripture “ with the old books, and added them one by one to the collection of old books as additional Scriptures, until at length the new books thus added were numerous enough to be looked upon as another section of the Scriptures.

The earliest name given to this new section of Scripture was framed on the model of the name by which what we know as the Old Testament was then known. Just as it was called “The Law and the Prophets and the Psalms” (or “the Hagiographa”), or more briefly “The Law and the Prophets,” or even more briefly still “The Law”; so the enlarged Bible was called “The Law and the Prophets, with the Gospels and the Apostles” (so Clement of Alexandria, “Strom.” vi. 11, 88; Tertullian, “De Præs. Hær.” 36), or most briefly “The Law and the Gospel” (so Claudius Apolinaris, Irenæus); while the new books apart were called “The Gospel and the Apostles,” or most briefly of all” The Gospel.” This earliest name for the new Bible, with all that it involves as to its relation to the old and briefer Bible, is traceable as far back as Ignatius (A.D. 115), who makes use of it repeatedly (e.g., “ad Philad.” 5; “ad Smyrn.” 7). In one passage he gives us a hint of the controversies which the enlarged Bible of the Christians aroused among the Judaizers (“ad Philad.” 6). “When I heard some saying,” he writes, “‘Unless I find it in the Old [Books] I will not believe the Gospel,’ on my saying, ‘It is written,’ they answered, ‘That is the question.’ To me, however, Jesus Christ is the Old [Books]; his cross and death and resurrection, and the faith which is by him, the undefiled Old [Books] — by which I wish, by your prayers, to be justified. The priests indeed are good, but the High Priest better,” etc. Here Ignatius appeals to the “Gospel” as Scripture, and the Judaizers object, receiving from him the answer in effect which Augustine afterward formulated in the well-known saying that the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is first made clear in the New. What we need now to observe, however, is that to Ignatius the New Testament was not a different book from the Old Testament, but part of the one body of Scripture with it; an accretion, so to speak, which had grown upon it.

This is the testimony of all the early witnesses — even those which speak for the distinctively Jewish-Christian church. For example, that curious Jewish-Christian writing, “The Testaments of the XII. Patriarchs” (Benj. 11), tells us, under the cover of an ex post facto prophecy, that the “work and word” of Paul, i.e., confessedly the book of Acts and Paul’s Epistles, “shall be written in the Holy Books,” i.e., as is understood by all, made a part of the existent Bible. So even in the Talmud, in a scene intended to ridicule a “bishop” of the first century, he is represented as finding Galatians by “sinking himself deeper” into the same “Book” which contained the Law of Moses (“Babl. Shabbath,” 116 a and b). The details cannot be entered into here. Let it suffice to say that, from the evidence of the fragments which alone have been preserved to us of the Christian writings of that very early time, it appears that from the beginning of the second century (and that is from the end of the apostolic age) a collection (Ignatius, II Clement) of “New Books” (Ignatius), called the “Gospel and Apostles” (Ignatius, Marcion), was already a part of the “Oracles” of God (Polycarp, Papias, II Clement), or “Scriptures” (I Tim., II Pet., Barn., Polycarp, II Clement), or the” Holy Books “or “Bible” (Testt. XII. Patt.).

The number of books included in this added body of New Books, at the opening of the second century, cannot be satisfactorily determined by the evidence of these fragments alone. The section of it called the “Gospel” included Gospels written by “the apostles and their companions” (Justin), which beyond legitimate question were our four Gospels now received. The section called “the Apostles contained the book of Acts (The Testt. XII. Patt.) and epistles of Paul, John, Peter and James. The evidence from various quarters is indeed enough to show that the collection in general use contained all the books which we at present receive, with the possible exceptions of Jude, II and III John and Philemon. And it is more natural to suppose that failure of very early evidence for these brief booklets is due to their insignificant size rather than to their non-acceptance.

It is to be borne in mind, however, that the extent of the collection may have — and indeed is historically shown actually to have — varied in different localities. The Bible was circulated only in hand-copies, slowly and painfully made; and an incomplete copy, obtained say at Ephesus in A.D. 68, would be likely to remain for many years the Bible of the church to which it was conveyed; and might indeed become the parent of other copies, incomplete like itself, and thus the means of providing a whole district with incomplete Bibles. Thus, when we inquire after the history of the New Testament Canon we need to distinguish such questions as these: (1) When was the New Testament Canon completed? (2) When did any one church acquire a completed Canon? (3) When did the completed canon — the complete Bible — obtain universal circulation and acceptance? (4) On what ground and evidence did the churches with incomplete Bibles accept the remaining books when they were made known to them?

The Canon of the New Testament was completed when the last authoritative book was given to any church by the apostles, and that was when John wrote the Apocalypse, about A.D. 98. Whether the church of Ephesus, however, had a completed Canon when it received the Apocalypse, or not, would depend on whether there was any epistle, say that of Jude, which had not yet reached it with authenticating proof of its apostolicity. There is room for historical investigation here. Certainly the whole Canon was not universally received by the churches till somewhat later. The Latin church of the second and third centuries did not quite know what to do with the Epistle to the Hebrews. The Syrian churches for some centuries may have lacked the lesser of the Catholic Epistles and Revelation. But from the time of Irenæus down, the church at large had the whole Canon as we now possess it. And though a section of the church may not yet have been satisfied of the apostolicity of a certain book or of certain books; and though afterwards doubts may have arisen in sections of the church as to the apostolicity of certain books (as e. g. of Revelation): yet in no case was it more than a respectable minority of the church which was slow in receiving, or which came afterward to doubt, the credentials of any of the books that then as now constituted the Canon of the New Testament accepted by the church at large. And in every case the principle on which a book was accepted, or doubts against it laid aside, was the historical tradition of apostolicity.

Let it, however, be clearly understood that it was not exactly apostolic authorship which in the estimation of the earliest churches, constituted a book a portion of the “canon.” Apostolic authorship was, indeed, early confounded with canonicity. It was doubt as to the apostolic authorship of Hebrews, in the West, and of James and Jude, apparently, which underlay the slowness of the inclusion of these books in the “canon” of certain churches. But from the beginning it was not so. The principle of canonicity was not apostolic authorship, but imposition by the apostles as “law.” Hence Tertullian’s name for the “canon” is “instrumentum”; and he speaks of the Old and New Instrument as we would of the Old and New Testament. That the apostles so imposed the Old Testament on the churches which they founded — as their “Instrument,” or “Law,” or “Canon” — can be denied by none. And in imposing new books on the same churches, by the same apostolical authority, they did not confine themselves to books of their own composition. It is the Gospel according to Luke, a man who was not an apostle, which Paul parallels in I Tim. v. 18 with Deuteronomy as equally “Scripture” with it in the first extant quotation of a New Testament book of as Scripture. The Gospels which constituted the first division of the New Books, — of “The Gospel and the Apostles,” — Justin tells us, were “written by the apostles and their companions.” The authority of the apostles, as by divine appointment founders of the church, was embodied in whatever books they imposed on the church as law, not merely in those they themselves had written.

The early churches, in short, received, as we receive, into their New Testament all the books historically evinced to them as given by the apostles to the churches as their code of law; and we must not mistake the historical evidences of the slow circulation and authentication of these books over the widely-extended church, for evidence of slowness of “canonization” of books by the authority or the taste of the church itself.

154 posted on 11/06/2014 9:23:40 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: mrobisr

Amen!


155 posted on 11/06/2014 9:25:43 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: NYer

Seriously...

“Accordingly, the Bible can be considered to be two things – it is younger than the Catholic Church and it is the product of the Catholic Church.”

John 1:1 New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 16:23 New International Version (NIV)

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”


156 posted on 11/06/2014 9:34:47 PM PST by mrobisr
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To: verga

I guess I don’t know what TBC stands for. We are one convention.....and not liberal.
If a church tries to elect a woman pastor they may be dropped from the association. That is very very rare.
And same-sex marriage is unbiblical and not supported by any SBC.
We do love you all. Even though many Catholics look down their noses on other churches.


157 posted on 11/06/2014 10:52:26 PM PST by ladyellen
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To: boatbums; y'all

This steady drumbeat on this forum with a handful of Catholics posting thread after thread denigrating what they mistakenly deem a non Catholic monolith uniformly labeled Protestant....with zero distinction in that label....

...are waging a war in the wrong direction

The most vocal critics of Catholics here and arguably 90% of the anti Catholic gang here are not Protestants..... Baptists.... Methodists...Pentecostals.... etc....

But in reality they are folks born into the Catholic faith and who have rejected that faith and became eventually some sort of non Catholic or non denominational Christ follower

They blame non Catholic faiths even though few ...none I know of....Mormons probably.... try to steal Catholics away....I’m southern Baptist....we sure didn’t.... we’d take them but we didn’t go looking for them

I’ve known plenty ex Catholics... none were stolen away....they simply lost faith in the church or the clergy or the politics of it

I know a family here in Franklin TN who left because the priest was a social liberal and the church seemed like a Latino third world congregation....their explanation.... they went to a non denominational praise church...more rigid culture war folks

My; office manager...a former altar boy left over the homosexual scandal and his view the church had tried to hide it....and yes...he was assaulted by his priest at 11....he resisted and reported and no one listened...admittedly he is vehemently anti Catholic today and a firm Pentecostal who has a degree from Them a Bible Training in Tulsa from Ken Hagin Sr....a charismatic...deceased

Personally I don’t care what catholics do...I think the past two popes were better...I think this one is too liberation leaning

I think Latino Catholics here will vote democrat and statistically have very high illegitimacy rates and crime rates too....they don’t listen to the church like they should...which frankly I’ve noticed in a fair number of catholics in name only

But these attacks on non catholics here...even if the authors feel are justified...are not aimed in the right direction

Your biggest foes here are former kinsmen and kinswomen....examine why they left the faith and the acrimony and quit using my faith as a scapegoat

I don’t attack Catholicism...its a fine faith for those who want it and no question it was the cornerstone of post Roman western civilization

A light of the world in its day...warts or not...a keeper of the faith.....a voice often of mercy and compassion and even reason...Aquinas...Augustine

But your issue here isn’t the Reformation... its your own kind at war with adherent Catholics.......so address that

Tks boatbums....have a cool weekend


158 posted on 11/06/2014 11:50:08 PM PST by wardaddy (todays republicans are worse than reconstruction era.....and that takes effort)
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To: Salvation
Why are you trying to tell Catholics what to believe?

You post that condemnation to a poster shortly after you outright told a dedicated Lutheran Protestant to leave his belief system and accept one offered by the Catholic belief system?

That certainly reeks of hypocrisy.

Have you ever read the scripture about the speck and beam?

Catholics complain about other denomination posters trying to get them to believe in the Christianity that Jesus taught and yet your post prosthelytizes for Catholicism to someone who is a solid protestant and will stay so.

159 posted on 11/07/2014 12:08:18 AM PST by Syncro (Benghazi-LIES/CoverupIRS-LIES/CoverupDOJ-NO Justice--Etc Marxist Treason IMPEACH!)
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To: Salvation
The Roman Empire under Nero was killing the Catholics.

The Roman Catholic Empire under Constantine was killing Christians...

160 posted on 11/07/2014 2:04:00 AM PST by Iscool
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