Posted on 11/04/2014 1:26:15 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o
Edited on 11/04/2014 6:38:00 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Even Southern Baptists know not to turn down an invitation from the Pope.
Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church, and Russell Moore, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission, will meet Pope Francis and offer an
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
Well put. Human flourishing requires it.
I suspect that Billy Graham isn’t well enough to make any trips.
miss the mark.
Bob said or did no such denigrating.
What he did do was point towards how your own leading question was something of a non sequitur, though originally posed as a question aimed towards "Resolute"--- not to Bob(!) -- but has now become not a question per se, for it has now turned towards being an assertion on your part as to what others allegedly believe, with poor old Bob left holding the bag...
Just stop.
No more.
That kind of thing makes frank discussion around here far more difficult than it needs to be.
In other words --- STOP putting words in other people's mouths.
Can you do that?
Art, are you really a Catholic priest or is your bio the projection of some unfulfilled . . . . desire. The reason I ask is that you throw out accusations pretty freely in your postings (Isn’t Satan called the accuser of the brethren?) and that seems pretty un-priestly to me. Whom do you suppose the Apostles consulted on the idea(s) of marriage? I mean after the crucifixion, of course. I would think their ideas were pretty fixed. All I need to know is in the Old Testament. Do you think the Pope has some confusion on the issue? Or has God changed his stance towards homosexuality? I sure don’t.
Isn’t this meeting a little premature?
Francis has already stated that he and his fellow [Catholic] bishops have a year to mature on their own understanding of such things as the indissolubly of the Sacrament of Marriage or the sins of sodomy or heterosexual cohabitation.
Is he now bringing in the non-Catholics to help us Catholics in our maturation process?
The indissolubly of the Sacrament of Marriage and the sinfulness of sodomy and heterosexual cohabitation are not in question. Those are red-letter, literally carved-in-stone, back-to-Moses level Magisterial doctrines. That can't be changed any more than you could change the Law of Gravity.
The whole "maturing" has to do with pastoral practices.
A cohabiting couple wish to be married. How long do you require them to live separately and abstain from sex before they marry? Six weeks? Six months? Legitimate questions.
A teenage girl is enrolled in a Catholic high school. Her mother is divorced. For years, the mother has always participated generously in fundraising activities, in chaparoning the girls on school-sponsored trips and so forth. IN the course of the school year her mother "marries" another woman. Does the school permit both "mothers" to come to parents' conferences? Is mother #1 going to be allowed to do fundraising or chaparoning? Are both "mothers" allowed to? Does the school expell the girl? Legitimate questions.
A man and a woman are married in the Church. Years down the line, the man "transitions" via self-mutilation surgery to be a pseudo-woman. They stay together, the original wife saying they now have a same-sex marriage. Are they still married? Should they separate because they are now practicing lesbian sex? Is there an indissoluble bond or isn't there? Are they to be banned from coming to church? Legitimate questions.
Two elderly women Roz and Sally Smith, are living together. One is older (mid-70's) and disabled, the other younger mid-50's and very much the caregiver. The younger woman is a Eucharistic Minister who devotedly takes Holy Communion to Catholic people in nursing homes. Nobody really inquired, many assumed the two were mother-daughter.
It comes out that they are a lesbian couple. Those in the parish who know about it are scandalized by it. But Roz told the pastor in confession that the two of them haven't had sex for decades.(Naturally, he can't talk about this because of the Seal of the Confessional.) Should Roz and Sally split up? Should Roz's ministry of Nursing Home Communion visits be taken away from her? Should she be required to tell the whole community publicly that she and Sally haven't had sex for decades? Or should the scandalized parishioners be told it's none of their business? Legitimate questions.
You have a parish in a predominantly gay neighborhood. You are the new pastor. Does every member of the choir have to be questioned as to whether they are gay? Do all the addresses in the Parish Directory have to be examined to see if people are sharing apartments? If so, are they to be interrogated as to whether they are just normal roommates, or are they sexually involved? If people don't volunteer this information, do you surveil them somehow? Chgeck people's Facebook ages for PDA's? And how often do you preach on sodomy? Frequently? In a congregation which also has lots of children listening? Legitimate questions.
Pastoral questions.
Let the experienced and holy and soul-winning, solidly orthodox pastors speak.
Plus, Old Testament law required periodic abstinence as a means of maximizing he likelihood of pregnancy. A married couple was required to abstain from sex during menstruation, and then count 7 days after the last show of blood, then have a mikvah (purifying bath) and resume relations. This adds up to 12-13 days of abstinence which puts you on the 12th or 13th day of the cycle, so the man's sperm count is high and the woman is just on the very verge of ovulation. This is the time of absolute maximum fertility. This is the only time you are allowed to have sex: from day 12-13 until the onset of the next menstrual period.
So. You want to do it the Biblical way? There you go! Mazel tov!
Thank you so much. Just because there was “ polygamy, concubinage, and sexual relations with women captured in war.” doesn’t mean God approved of it. As far as maximizing the liklihood of pregnancy and Jewish laws, I’ll deal with that on my own personal level. God Himself said He changes not. So the probability of approval from above on homosexuality is zero.
Let the experienced and holy and soul-winning, solidly orthodox pastors speak.
Where are they? The few I know have been demoted and exiled to islands and beyond.
P.S. The indissolubility of marriage has been in question ever since Francis opened his mouth on his plane trip back from Rio.
As far as all of your hypothetical situations, how is convening with Muslims, Jews, and heretics going to help Francis and his hand-picked solidly heterodox bishops mature?
Of course, it’s ridiculous. The Catholic Church’s understanding of marriage is fully developed. It doesn’t need any “development” or “maturation.” Those are just code-words for “agitation” and “propaganda.”
I don’t think those are the “pastoral issues” that are going to be discussed. All the evidence says that the Kasperites—Wuerl, Dolan, O’Malley, the Pope—are agitating simply to allow the unmarried and gay couples to receive Communion. That’s what Bergoglio did in Buenos Aires.
Muslims vote, and are encouraged to vote, as a bloc, for Democrats, for one reason only: Democrats offer absolutely no resistance to the imposition of Sharia. Muslims have no objection if non-Muslims have abortions. They don’t care what the civil law may say about abortion, or anything else, because they don’t recognize any right of any humans to make laws.
Unfortunately, that pertains to most "conservative" Catholics in the Novus Ordo Church.
I see it over and over again on this site.
The Biblical Law (not just the neutral narration of an incident, but LAW) laid out the conditions under which a man could compel a female captive to be his wife: Deut 21:10-13. This is rape under guide of forced marriage.
Deut. 20:14 goes even further, into outright forcible rape: "However, you can take for yourselves the women, the children, the animals, and all that is in the city—all its plunder. You can then enjoy your enemies’ plunder, which the Lord your God has given you."
Biblical law. It says the Lord your od has given you these women to "enjoy" as "plunder."
Mrs. o, I don’t know if your interpretation is a womans perspective or a Catholic but I certainly consider it flawed. You don’t take into account the circumstances or the culture in this time frame. The female in this instance is either widowed or unmarried although it does not specifically say that. War does that to women. To leave her in the lands without the protection of a husband would be cold blooded. It does say to take her as wife (you know the love and to hold part?). There is a month long waiting period to see if both take delight in one another and if not she is free to go. It specifically says not to prostitute her out. So your claims of rape are spurious and duplicious. Peace be with you.
Have a nice day.
You did not cite the verse and scripture on that phrase but I will say this. You are looking at this from this centuries views and culture and therefore out of context. "Enjoy as plunder" means it is a gift from God and take it without guilt. God gave them a victory and it was not solely by their own hands they were victorious. The glory belongs to God. Again, I say you are projecting current Western mindset on circumstances which I doubt you can neither imagine nor understand. Have a good day yourself.
It’s all relative, then?
No, they certainly should read it, sadly many do not enough or at all. As far as speaking about it, definitely but in the context of what God wrote. The Bible is very clear on homosexuality.
The Pope, Joel Osteen, or any other “clergy” that attempts to frame those words as anything but what they are is heresy. We don’t need the Pope or any other minister watering those words down and trying to fit them into our overtly PC culture today. They can argue that they are just trying to not be confrontational to draw more people in the church to hear the message.
I say if the message is wrong then they don’t need to hear it and we don’t need to spread it. I don’t care if I hurt someone’s feelings the Bible doesn’t say spread the word but only if it makes people feel good. Truth hurts and if you are a sinner, like we all are, some words needs to leave a mark.
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