All Souls, Purgatory and the Bible

On All Souls Day, the Catholic Church offers prayers and liturgies for the repose of the dead. As Catholics, we are called by the Church to focus our spiritual energies to assist these poor souls, who, though saved, are still in need of purification. Our prayers and sacrifices assist them in this process of purification as a means used by God to communicate purifying grace to them. After all, He is the vine, we are the branches so that He produces his fruits of grace through us.

The practice of praying for the dead actually predates Christianity. In 2 Maccabees 12: 41-45, Judas offers prayers and sacrifices for his fallen comrades to make “atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.” Some argue that the books of the Maccabees are not inspired scripture. Leaving that argument aside for now, we can at least look at them as historical books detailing accepted pious practices of God’s people some 300 years before Christ.

If that is the only place in the Bible where we find any reference to purgatory, many Protestant Christians argue, then that is a weak support for such a practice. Fortunately, we know as Catholics that all of our doctrines are indeed found in the Word of God, as is the doctrine of Purgatory. Hence what follows is a biblical understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

The book of Genesis recounts for us the far reaching repercussions of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden. This sin, we find, brought about four consequences which I will summarize here (Gen 3: 16-24):

First, their sin brings about disharmony between persons. God tells Eve that both her relationship to her husband and children will now be characterized by pain and mistrust (Gen 3:16). Further, God has to make garments for man and woman because now, as the text implies, they feel shame (Gen 3:21).

Second, their sin brings about disharmony between man and creation. God tells Adam that he will produce the fruit of the earth with toil and difficulty (Gen 3: 17). Even the ground itself is cursed because of their sin (Gen 3: 17).

Third, their sin brings about disharmony between man and himself. He no longer has spiritual control over his body; thus, his body returns to the dust of the ground (Gen 3: 19). Adam and Eve are no longer able to receive everlasting life (Gen 3: 22).

Lastly and most importantly, sin brings disharmony between God and man. This consequence results in mistrust and fear of God (Gen 3: 10), and, worse, spiritual death. Without God, neither physical nor spiritual life can be sustained (Gen 3: 19, 24).

The first three disharmonies mentioned above are called ‘Temporal punishments due to sin.’ Temporal refers to things pertaining to this world. The last disharmony, the disharmony with God, is called eternal punishment, because it refers to things pertaining to the eternal world with God.

All four of these disharmonies are healed by Christ. The only healing we experience fully in this life, however, is from eternal punishment–or disharmony with God. That’s why Christ is the One Mediator between God and man.

It should be clear that we don’t experience a full healing from the temporal disharmonies/punishments as Christians, because we still struggle. We experience suffering, illness, catastrophes, and even death. Yet, Christ heals these problems, too, it’s just that we don’t experience the full healing in the temporal sphere until He returns.

Until then, we are called to struggle for His Kingdom. As St. Paul puts it, “But we have this treasure (the healing grace of salvation) in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying around in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” (2 Cor 7-10)

To overcome these temporal disharmonies, we are called to cooperate with Christ’s power in grace so as to bring about the healing with Him in these areas. This is why we are called to pray, fast, and alms give so as to forgive our neighbor’s sins and be forgiven, and to receive the reward promised by our heavenly Father that we will once again regain temporal peace/harmony on earth and in heaven (Mt 6:5-23).

What happens if we die and are reconciled to God (the eternal punishment for sin), but have not entirely cooperated with grace to overcome the temporal punishments for sin? St. Paul gives us the answer in 1 Cor 3: 12-16. He says that after death, our works will be tested “as though by fire, and the fire will test what kind of work we have done,” and we will suffer loss, though we will still be saved (1 Cor 3:13-15).

This is a very clear passage regarding the purification (which we call purgatory) that takes place after death. This fire purifies us from our temporal disharmonies mentioned above, if we die without having them entirely purified in this life.

>>The woman in Revelation is Mary, now in Heaven.<<

Revelation 12:1 And a great sign was seen in the heaven,

Catholics think that John would not have recognized Mary? The importance of Mary and the "queen of heaven" concept to the Catholic faith and they have to rely on one verse where John, the person Mary was living with, and he doesn't even take the opportunity to identify her? Really? It was a sign and we can go back to the Old Testament to begin to understand who that sign is referring to.

Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD has called you, Like a wife (woman) forsaken and grieved in spirit, Even like a wife (woman) of one's youth when she is rejected," Says your God. 7 For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you. 8 In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer.…

The Hebrew word used that has been translated "wife" in that verse is translated woman, wife, or female. The Greek word in Revelation translated "woman" means woman or wife. The "woman" in Revelation is the same "woman" as in Isaiah 54.

>>The book of Revelation is the catholic mass liturgy taking place in heaven<<

No, the book of Revelation is the description of the last seven years of the prophecy of Daniel and the end of this age.

>>Modern Protestants try to explain Revelation as geopolitical, etc., but they do not get it and never will.<<

Catholics will never understand Revelation because they have been taught that the "church" has superseded the nation of Israel which is a total corruption of scripture.

>>So please stop attempting to explain Catholicism as a non Catholic because you ARE NOT one and there are massive blind spots in your thinking;<<

I don't try to explain Catholicism but only point out their own published and stated beliefs that are contrary to scripture.

>>it comes across as mean spirited and unChristian - maybe you do not realize this?<<

If Catholics find posting scripture pointing out their errors is mean spirited so be it. I will continue to contend for the truth of scripture.

Catholicism consists of mostly pagan rituals and beliefs.

Why are YOU insisting that a day isn't 24 hours? Because the Bible tells me so. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Peter 3:8 I always find it interesting that folks who claim the Bible is literal ignore those parts that disagree with their man-made beliefs, this one, IS means represents, and "not by faith alone"

KEY WORDS: WITH THE LORD... What is a day with man in this earthly life? You want to claim that also is a thousand years??? This isn't ignoring anything. It's paying attention to the context. Something, apparently, some people are unable to distinguish because their man-made dogmas get in the way.

I'll have to save this one as another example of inanity and the ridiculous measures some take to nitpick just to avoid admitting they were wrong.

Catholics think that John would not have recognized Mary?

Thank you for this question. I remember when I was new to Revelation, and even upon hearing it taught that it was Mary and Jesus, thought it quite odd. One has to wonder why John, a contemporary of Mary, and someone who would have immediately recognized her, failed to identify Mary by name? There is no question in my mind if John had seen Mary, he would have identified her. The same goes for the man child. Why would John not immediately identify this person as Jesus? He certainly would have recognized him as he was with him on Earth, saw him glorified at the Transfiguration, and met with him after Jesus' resurrection. The truth is this was a sign/wonder representing a summary of the past, as well as the future events at mid-tribulation.

John takes you back to the beginning of time and shows you the spiritual battle of the devil against God's chosen people who would produce the Word, Jesus. Note that the dragon "stands" continually seeking to devour - Joseph, the male children of Israel born in Egypt, Haman's plot in Esther, while Jesus was alive (Bethlehem, the temptation, the many attempts on his life), the fall of Jerusalem and dispersion of the Jews among the nations, the pogroms, persecution, the holocaust, and the coming tribulation.

Mary is NEVER described in scripture in such terms, but there is a description in the Old Testament that sounds familiar to Revelation 12:7 - Jacob/Israel's family.

Genesis 37:9 (KJV)

9 And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

And in another place, a pretty interesting parallel verse to what we see in Revelation 12.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (KJV) 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Catholics will never understand Revelation because they have been taught that the "church" has superseded the nation of Israel which is a total corruption of scripture.

I think that error has filtered into a few denominations. The Christian college I attended my freshman year was teaching some interesting things concerning Revelation. The moment you start trying to force the Church into Revelation, you end up in the proverbial religious ditch. And you rob Israel of their proper place in prophecy.

Here is where catholics trip themselves up:

Nothing in scripture is about Mary, anywhere.

Even when Mary is mentioned, it is all about her son, not her.

Mostly when she is mentioned, it is not by name, but by her relationship to her son: “Thy mother...” or “there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there”

The Bible is not about the mother, it is about the Son!

KEY WORDS: WITH THE LORD... Yes. The LORD said "Today you will be with me in Paradise" To the Lord, how long was that?

Just now you are getting around to asking me that question? Why didn't you LEAD with it? Here's a HINT...Jesus was talking to the thief while He was STILL in human form, wasn't He? We also know FROM THE Scriptures that Jesus was "three days and three nights" in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40). Shouldn't that give us a clue as to what time frame Jesus meant for the thief? Sure sounds to me like it was a literal day - not a thousand years - and that very first day in Paradise, just like Jesus told him. You don't want to believe Jesus, you want to imagine He was playing word games or tricking that guy, that's your problem. Like I have been saying all along, words in context mean what they say.

Scripture are the words of God. You apply your human and man made beliefs to change the clear words of Scripture.

That's rich coming from someone whose religion relies chiefly on human and man made beliefs, myths, legends and forgeries.

Today is not 24 hours to the Lord. A day is not 24 hours to the Lord. That is Scripture you deny

Was three days actually three days to Jesus when He said how long He would be before He resurrected or was it three thousand years??? When the Holy Spirit had Moses write in Genesis that He created the world in six days - with evening and morning being one day - and resting on the sixth day, was He really meaning six thousand years, or six million years, or billion...??? Seeing as Scripture:

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

When God means literal things, He says so. When He uses allegory, metaphor, parables, He is also clear...if we have ears to hear and hearts to seek after the truth.

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