All Souls, Purgatory and the Bible

On All Souls Day, the Catholic Church offers prayers and liturgies for the repose of the dead. As Catholics, we are called by the Church to focus our spiritual energies to assist these poor souls, who, though saved, are still in need of purification. Our prayers and sacrifices assist them in this process of purification as a means used by God to communicate purifying grace to them. After all, He is the vine, we are the branches so that He produces his fruits of grace through us.

The practice of praying for the dead actually predates Christianity. In 2 Maccabees 12: 41-45, Judas offers prayers and sacrifices for his fallen comrades to make “atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.” Some argue that the books of the Maccabees are not inspired scripture. Leaving that argument aside for now, we can at least look at them as historical books detailing accepted pious practices of God’s people some 300 years before Christ.

If that is the only place in the Bible where we find any reference to purgatory, many Protestant Christians argue, then that is a weak support for such a practice. Fortunately, we know as Catholics that all of our doctrines are indeed found in the Word of God, as is the doctrine of Purgatory. Hence what follows is a biblical understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

The book of Genesis recounts for us the far reaching repercussions of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden. This sin, we find, brought about four consequences which I will summarize here (Gen 3: 16-24):

First, their sin brings about disharmony between persons. God tells Eve that both her relationship to her husband and children will now be characterized by pain and mistrust (Gen 3:16). Further, God has to make garments for man and woman because now, as the text implies, they feel shame (Gen 3:21).

Second, their sin brings about disharmony between man and creation. God tells Adam that he will produce the fruit of the earth with toil and difficulty (Gen 3: 17). Even the ground itself is cursed because of their sin (Gen 3: 17).

Third, their sin brings about disharmony between man and himself. He no longer has spiritual control over his body; thus, his body returns to the dust of the ground (Gen 3: 19). Adam and Eve are no longer able to receive everlasting life (Gen 3: 22).

Lastly and most importantly, sin brings disharmony between God and man. This consequence results in mistrust and fear of God (Gen 3: 10), and, worse, spiritual death. Without God, neither physical nor spiritual life can be sustained (Gen 3: 19, 24).

The first three disharmonies mentioned above are called ‘Temporal punishments due to sin.’ Temporal refers to things pertaining to this world. The last disharmony, the disharmony with God, is called eternal punishment, because it refers to things pertaining to the eternal world with God.

All four of these disharmonies are healed by Christ. The only healing we experience fully in this life, however, is from eternal punishment–or disharmony with God. That’s why Christ is the One Mediator between God and man.

It should be clear that we don’t experience a full healing from the temporal disharmonies/punishments as Christians, because we still struggle. We experience suffering, illness, catastrophes, and even death. Yet, Christ heals these problems, too, it’s just that we don’t experience the full healing in the temporal sphere until He returns.

Until then, we are called to struggle for His Kingdom. As St. Paul puts it, “But we have this treasure (the healing grace of salvation) in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying around in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” (2 Cor 7-10)

To overcome these temporal disharmonies, we are called to cooperate with Christ’s power in grace so as to bring about the healing with Him in these areas. This is why we are called to pray, fast, and alms give so as to forgive our neighbor’s sins and be forgiven, and to receive the reward promised by our heavenly Father that we will once again regain temporal peace/harmony on earth and in heaven (Mt 6:5-23).

What happens if we die and are reconciled to God (the eternal punishment for sin), but have not entirely cooperated with grace to overcome the temporal punishments for sin? St. Paul gives us the answer in 1 Cor 3: 12-16. He says that after death, our works will be tested “as though by fire, and the fire will test what kind of work we have done,” and we will suffer loss, though we will still be saved (1 Cor 3:13-15).

This is a very clear passage regarding the purification (which we call purgatory) that takes place after death. This fire purifies us from our temporal disharmonies mentioned above, if we die without having them entirely purified in this life.

>>John 6 clearly refers to the eucharist and cannot be twisted otherwise without mental gymnastics.<<

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirite and life.

Yet Catholics insist it's the flesh. That's mental gymnastics all right.

>>2 Peter 1:20 and 2 Peter 3:16 condemns private interpretation<<

2 Corinthians 1:13 For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end;

>>The Jewish people have always taught through word of mouth (tradition) AND the written word. The early Christians did not suddenly change this concept, especially since the bible wasn't’t written right away.<<

Now, prove that what the Catholic Church teaches that it calls "tradition" that is not found in scripture is the same thing the apostles taught that they called "tradition". After all, Paul said if something is taught that they didn't teach that teacher is considered accursed by God.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If the Catholic Church teaches something the apostles didn't teach we are to consider them accursed.

>>Remember EVERYTHING good and true that prots know about God has come from the Catholic Church.<<

1 Corinthians 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Trying to take credit away from God is not going to turn out well for Catholics.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Evidently Catholics disagree with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Could you show where the assumption of Mary is taught by the apostles in scripture?

Is that the Maccabees that says money replaces the blood of Christ?

2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."

The Holy Spirit says this.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Quoting from books that disagree with the Holy Spirit is deadly.

Is that the Maccabees that says money replaces the blood of Christ? 2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."

The 13 Contribution Chests (Trumpets) According to the Mishnah (Middoth 2,5) the Women's Court was was just over 200 feet square between bounding lines. Each court on the outside was 60 feet square. The colonnade ran around the court, and within it, against the wall, the thirteen chests, or 'trumpets,' for charitable contributions were placed.

These thirteen chests were narrow at the mouth and wide at the bottom, shaped like trumpets. There were actually eleven treasure chests of the Temple for the voluntary offerings of money, and then also two at the Gate of Susan, for the half-shekel tax.

Their specific objects were carefully marked on them. Nine were for the receipt of what was legally due by worshippers; the other four for strictly voluntary gifts.

According to tradition Edersheim says:

Trumpets 1 and 2 were appropriated to the half-shekel Temple-tribute of the current and of the past year.

Into Trumpet 3 those women who had to bring turtledoves for a burnt and a sin offering dropped their equivalent in money, which was daily taken out and a corresponding number of turtledoves offered. This not only saved the labour of so many separate sacrifices, but spared the modesty of those who might not wish to have the occasion or the circumstances of their offering to be publicly known. Into this trumpet Mary the mother of Jesus must have dropped the value of her offering (Luke 2:22,24) when the aged Simeon took the infant Saviour 'in his arms, and blessed God.'

Trumpet 4 similarly received the value of the offerings of young pigeons.

In Trumpet 5 contributions for the wood used in the Temple;

in Trumpet 6 for the incense, and

in Trumpet 7 for the golden vessels for the ministry were deposited. If a man had put aside a certain sum for a sin-offering, and any money was left over after its purchase, it was cast into Trumpet VIII. Similarly,

Trumpets 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 were destined for what was left over from trespass-offerings, offerings of birds, the offering of the Nazarite, of the cleansed leper, and voluntary offerings. In all probability this space where the thirteen Trumpets were placed was the 'treasury,' where Jesus taught on that memorable Feast of Tabernacles (John 7 and 8; see specially 8:20). We can also understand how, from the peculiar and known destination of each of these thirteen 'trumpets,' the Lord could distinguish the contributions of the rich who cast in 'of their abundance' from that of the poor widow who of her 'penury' had given 'all the living' that she had (Mark 12:41; Luke 21:1). But there was also a special treasury-chamber, into which at certain times they carried the contents of the thirteen chests; and, besides, what was called 'a chamber of the silent,' where devout persons secretly deposited money, afterwards secretly employed for educating children of the pious poor.

If one doesn't want want the religion one inherited from the Jews, one can return it for a full refund.

The Holy Spirit says this. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

No, that is what the scripture says. If you endeavor to quote the Holy Spirit, you should do so correctly.

And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Quoting from books that disagree with the Holy Spirit is deadly.

Do you have a specific commandment from Messiah or an Apostle that "quoting from books" that you think disagree with the Holy Spirit "is deadly?" Do you think you risk your life by just quoting 2 Maccabees here on the thread ? Do you risk your life if you quote a Gentile philosopher, a Jewish rabbinical source, the US Constitution, or ... any other book that is not on your approved list ? I assume you'll tolerate the Apostle to the Gentiles quoting Epimenides when he wrote a poem to a Greek diety:

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one, Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies. But you are not dead: you live and abide forever, For in you we live and move and have our being.

>>If one doesn't want want the religion one inherited from the Jews, one can return it for a full refund.<<

And not one of the offerings designated by God were to be offered for dead people.

>>No, that is what the scripture says. If you endeavor to quote the Holy Spirit, you should do so correctly.<<

So you don't believe that all of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

>>Do you have a specific commandment from Messiah or an Apostle that "quoting from books" that you think disagree with the Holy Spirit "is deadly?"<<

If it wasn't taught by the apostles? Yes.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

>>I assume you'll tolerate the Apostle to the Gentiles quoting Epimenides when he wrote a poem to a Greek diety:<<

Nice try at obfuscation but it doesn't work. You were not quoting Maccabees to condemn the teaching contained or those who believe it.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.