I think I did not explain myself well. Of course, I was not intending my comment to be a discussion point, so I did not try to explain myself well.
I will try now (and as I review what I have written, have probably failed again).
I was trying to say that I understand those that discuss Mormonism from a dissenting point of view. That is because I agree that the most important thing is our relationship with Christ.
Where I disagree is the claim that Mormonism is a threat to our relationship with Christ. Obviously I feel that my relationship with Christ is strengthened through Mormonism, and others (I assume you included) feel that Mormonism is a cult and therefore threatens this relationship. And while I disagree with you on that, I understand where you are coming from, and respect that. I see it no differently from our missionary efforts - we feel we have something very important to share. Something that will save others’ souls. I am thinking that you guys feel the same way. That your efforts are an attempt to save souls.
What I don’t respect is that there are some here that seem to feel it is ok to lie about Mormonism. We certainly don’t hear the “horns on their head” type of stuff anymore, but we still hear things like not worshiping Christ, or not celebrating Christmas or Easter, or claims about what is or isn’t in our scriptures.
Sometimes the mis-statements are made in error, or are presented as opinion. For example, up-thread you said ‘tithe — what Lds reference as the “Law of consecration”’ Technically that is not true. I trust you were not intentionally lying, but that you were copying something that had that error already in it. And in the end, it really doesn’t change the point you were trying to make - that there are a lot of “rules” in Mormonism.
Other times things are misrepresented or stated out of context, sometimes it appears intentionally, sometimes in error. For example, the claim that Joseph Smith is who approves our admittance into heaven. Again, technically that is not true, but explaining that completely would take pages. In short, we feel the leaders of each dispensation will testify as to what law was binding at that time (for example, sacrificing animals versus faith/baptism). That doesn’t mean that Moses or Joseph Smith will judge us or admit us to heaven. Christ still judges us. Like I said, it would take pages to explain that well.
I also recognize that these misstatements or misrepresentations happen on both sides of the discussion. And I trust that most of these are unintentional or innocent. But there are some that clearly repeat falsehoods, even when corrected.
You mention multi-tasking. It doesn’t take much to look at the profiles of some of the posters here to see that nearly 100% of their posts are on anti-Mormonism threads. One can start to understand why some folks would use words like “obsessed” to describe them. Certainly there is little evidence that these 100%ers give any thought to anything outside of Mormonism. Maybe they do in their personal life, but they don’t show any sign of that here.
To me it becomes a difficult issue. There are times I would love to be able to remove myself from the main-stream world and just live with my family somewhere where the outside would not intrude. But at this time I am living in a small city, working, and trying to raise my kids and teach them what the important things are. And so I accept that I have to follow the “in the world but not of the world” idea.
Raising my family is easier if I don’t have to worry about their physical security, etc, and I have taken steps to remove some of the things that would harm them. I also feel that it is one of the purposes of government to provide some of that defense, and see that constitutional conservatism (with a touch of classic libertarianism) gets us closest to that. Hence my visits to this website (and others).
We talk in our faith about the gospel being like keys on a piano - there are lots of “notes.” We “label” some of those keys - faith, baptism, scripture study, service, family history, missionary service, etc. And we joke about folks in the church that are one-note members. Their whole life is family history, or food storage, or whatever. Just banging that one note over and over, at the neglect of the rest of the gospel.
As for me, my relationship with Christ is my highest priority. I strive every day to become more like Him in an attempt draw closer to Him. And to teach my family how to come to Christ as well. And, hopefully, over time, the rest of the world, too.
Ironic...that in the name of attempting to call out mischaraterizations on my part, you wind up engaging in misrepresentations yourself.
Example: You mention multi-tasking. It doesn’t take much to look at the profiles of some of the posters here to see that nearly 100% of their posts are on anti-Mormonism threads. One can start to understand why some folks would use words like “obsessed” to describe them. Certainly there is little evidence that these 100%ers give any thought to anything outside of Mormonism. Maybe they do in their personal life, but they don’t show any sign of that here.
Just earlier this month, posted three Islamic threads:
* Is Islam a destructive force in the world? [O'Reilly] (Oct.7, 2014)
* Professor at Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome-Islamic State not un-Islamic model is.. (Oct. 7, 2014
* (a third early October one was taken down by a mod...probably for a good reason...perhaps it was the source or the way I excerpted it)
And yet you implied that I don't take on both Islam & Mormonism.
Obviously, I'm not go to the mat posting Islamic threads on the FR site...I mean...c'mon...how many FR Muslims are there, after all?
As for "misrepresentations" on both sides...I at least attempt not to misrepresent what other FReepers have said.
Based on your post above, I don't believe you can now make the same claim.
If people are off-base to an nth degree about some "ism," obviously we all allow a slim margin of error.
When you start making your misrepresentations personal ones, I don't think that should stand as is without revisitation. I think you need to take a step back. And consider apologizing.
You know..T.P. if you to a middle chart at a link...you can find over a dozen Mormon authoritative references to this: Mormon Tabernacle Choir conductor: 'Praise to the Man'...hymn praises Joseph Smith [Smithmas vanity]
I find it rather difficult to believe...that had you lived in SLC circa pre civil war & early civil war times ... you would tell a certain tabernacle speaker ... nope you are statin a falsity upon sayin...: no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world;
Or...1974...as deseret book co...owned by ldsism...said: Deseret Book Co. publishes a book of discourses and writings of one of its top three hierarchists from the 19th century, George Q. Cannon, who announces: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (Lds "apostle" George Q. Cannon) Editor Jerreld L. Newquist, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, Vol. 1, p. 255 Deseret Book Co.
Mitt Romney has made this vow, which IMO precludes his worthiness to become POTUS...and the electorage agreed.
T.P. PLEASE take note of ALL of the Lds "scriptures" & Lds leaders comments that follow re: tithing. (And whoever else reads, read, mark, learn, digest, etc. how a false obfuscation goes on here...I don't know if it's all intentional or not...I just have a tough time believing that somebody like T.P. would be as unaware of these Mormonosities as what follows):
When I go to my trusty 1977 Deseret Book Co. A Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"...for its entry on "tithing" (p. 459), I find 16 Biblical references that Mormon leaders have made re: this word/subject...plus two from the Book of Mormon (Alma 13:15 and 3 Nephi 24:8 re: "robbing" God in "tithes and offerings") + four verses in the Lds "scriptures" of Doctrine & Covenants:
* for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his... (D&C 64:23) Lds.org cites D&C 64:23 thusly: “In the present dispensation, the law of tithing was revived, and the keeping of that law is one of the FIRST duties of the Latter-day Saints. September 11, 1831, about eighteen months after the organization of the church, the Lord, through Joseph, the Seer, made this important declaration. Speaking after the manner of the Lord, he called ‘today,’ from the giving of the revelation until the coming of the Son of Man, and said, ‘Verily, it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at His coming. For after today cometh the burning,’ that is, at the coming of the Son of Man, ‘for verily I say, tomorrow’ – that is, at the Lord’s coming – ‘all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts.” (D&C 64:23, 24.)
Are you seriously unaware of these two D&C passages, T.P.?
T.P....before I stated in post #5 -- what you somehow objected to above -- re: (2) You HAVE TO tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"...I made-sure I did almost a whole day's research several years ago before elaborating. How did I accomplish that?
I spent a goodly amount of time reviewing the word "laws" and dozens & dozens of contexts as how that word was contextualized in various articles at Lds.org. My conclusion? If you look at Lds.org like I did -- in fact, EVERY single entry -- they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?
It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing (yes, also known as the Law of Consecration)
(2) The Law of Chastity
T.P. Are you now claiming that Lds.org isn't very "authoritative" for you or other Mormons?
* Joseph Fielding Smith states: “In the stead of this higher law [the law of consecration], the Lord gave to the Saints a schoolmaster, as he did ancient Israel to teach them and bring them to the fulness of the gospel of Christ. This is the law of tithing.
* “The law of tithing, as embodied in the revelations referred to, [in Sec. 119], is an immutable decree of Jehovah to His people, and admits of no evasion by those who would enjoy the blessings of the faithful on the land of Zion, or be classed among the righteous, and avoid the burning at the coming of our Lord.” (Principles of the Gospel, pp. 174-177.)
(T.P. "immutable = unchanging)
* Other revealed doctrines at the root of our religion include the Creation, the Resurrection, the law of tithing, prayer, and the consummate blessings of the temple. (Russell Nelson, official Lds church publication Liahona May 2004)
This Mormon link is now inactive...but listed "The Law of Tithing" as a key Mormon commandment...among...
The Commandments
Obedience to God's Commandments
Pray Often
Study the Scriptures
Keep the Sabbath Day Holy
Baptism and Confirmation
Follow the Prophet
Live the Law of Chastity
Obey the Word of Wisdom
Live the Law of Tithing
Observe the Law of the Fast
Obey and Honor the Law
* Law of consecration or The Law of Tithing: Definition: “The law of tithing is the law of revenue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Teachings of the President of the Church: Joseph F. Smith) Joseph F. Smith on law of tithing
* Why Instituted
We know of no better statement as to why the Lord revealed the law of tithing than that made by President Joseph F. Smith at the general conference of the Church in April, 1900. “Why the Law of Tithing Was Instituted – The Lord revealed to his people in the incipiency of his work a law which was more perfect than the law of tithing. It comprehended larger things, greater power, and a more speedy accomplishment of the purposes of the Lord. But the people were unprepared to live by it, and the Lord, out of mercy to the people, suspended the more perfect law [the law of consecration and stewardship], and gave the law of tithing, in order that there might be means in the storehouse of the Lord for the carrying out of the purposes he had in view; for the gathering of the poor, for the spreading of the gospel to the nations of the earth, for the maintenance of those who were required to give their constant attention, day in and day out, to the work of the Lord, and for whom it was necessary to make some provision. Without this law these things could not be done, neither could temples be built and maintained, nor the poor fed and clothed. Therefore the law of tithing is necessary for the Church, so much so that the Lord has laid great stress upon it.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 282.)
* “The law of tithing, is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, towards spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 283.) ….
* Prosperity Comes to Those Who Obey the Law
“The law of financial prosperity to the Latter-day Saints, under covenant with God, is to be an honest tithe payer, and not to rob the Lord in tithes and offerings. Prosperity comes to those who observe the law of tithing. When I say prosperity I am not thinking of it in terms of dollars and cents alone, although as a rule the Latter-day Saints who are the best tithe payers are the most prosperous men, financially. But what I call as real prosperity, as the one thing of all others that is of great value to every man and woman living, is the growth in a knowledge of God, and in a testimony, and in the power to live the gospel and to inspire our families to do the same.” (Lds "prophet" Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, p. 58.)
(There's MANY other references contained in Lds.org...the above should suffice)
The problem with this statement right out of the gate is that when a mormon or a defender accuses a dissenter of mormonISM of lying and challenged on it, there is usually no reply or response...a couple of posters come to mind. In effect, they've lied in order to accuse someone else of lying...
In addition, lies of ommission are just as bad as an outright falsehood...would you agree?