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Demonic and Ungodly Names in the Book of Mormon 3 [The OTHER WORLD series]
LifeAfter.org ^ | Jan. 11, 2014 | Michelle Grim

Posted on 10/27/2014 10:02:19 AM PDT by Colofornian

In the past six or so years I’ve written countless articles on many subjects regarding Mormonism, but there are a few subjects that continue to show up for another view and additional insight. The subject of this article is my case in point.

The first time I wrote on this subject I received many horrible reviews – all by members of the Church. The reviews that were favorable of course were from the Christians. At the request of former Mormons and Christians I was asked to write a sequel so I acquiesced – that was three years ago. Now I’m receiving more requests to write another so here I am again. Glory to God for His word, the truth and His guidance!

This time we’re taking a look at Ishmael, Moab, Laban, Emer and Neum. As you can see not all of the names are demonic, but serve as examples of the ungodliness of their names and the utter lack of information of the people involved.

How can some of these people be an ungodly people in the Bible, but a god fearing person or people with the Book of Mormon? We’ll be studying the derivatives of each, the parts they played in history and from where they originated. I pray that we all learn from this and as always, may we glorify the Lord and use it for His purpose.

Ishmael

Ishmael was not part of the everlasting covenant of God

In the Book of Mormon the sons of Lehi had been instructed by their father to go back into Jerusalem after they had fled for safety. They were to bring back the family of Ishmael in addition to taking some of Ishmael’s daughters as wives; 1 Nephi 7:1-22.

As stated in my article Nephi’s Reign it’s never been a good idea to hang with people named Ishmael. Now I don’t mean that to be rude to anyone with that name today, but biblically speaking for the Israelites, they had encountered nothing but trouble when it came to this clan. As you can see from the Book of Mormon this holds true as well, but only in part. When Nephi’s brothers began rebelling against him they had backup with Ishmael’s family giving them support. Yet as you well know, Ishmael in the Book of Mormon is someone who has come to know the Lord and is accepting of Him. The story of Ishmael in the Book of Mormon is a classic example of why the Mormon people are confused.

Matthew Henry referred to the very name of Ishmael as “ominous to all the seed of Isaac”. Now why would anyone from the tribe of Judah or Israel consort with anyone named Ishmael?

Fast forward several generations to the time of Jeremiah and we see another Ishmael in action that had learned how to carry on the traditions of his fathers. Hatred ran supreme through the land of Judah as the blood of Israel ran down the streets of Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian captivity.

When invited to dinner by Gedaliah, Ishmael took the opportunity to murder his gracious host as well as the others in attendance which included Israelites as well as some Chaldeans. The next day wanting to smell more blood of the Israelites, he and his henchmen orchestrated a mass killing of eighty more Israelite men on their way to Jerusalem merely wanting to offer sacrifices to the Lord.

Ishmael and company went out to greet the oncoming group of worshippers, told them of the horror they “had encountered” by finding everyone dead and led the group to the walls that protected the city. This group of worshippers was no doubt men from the groups of the infamous “Lost Ten Tribes” who were scattered when their kingdom was taken over by the Assyrians about a hundred years earlier. They didn’t belong to the tribe of Benjamin or Judah yet they were indeed Israelites and that’s all Ishmael was concerned about. See Jeremiah chapters 40 and 41 for the entire fiasco between Ishmael and Gedahliah.

When the Israelites arrived, Ishmael and his band of murderous thugs killed all of them and unceremoniously dumped the corpses into the cisterns. Nice guy huh? Now why wouldn’t you just want to scoop these people up and ask if you can marry their daughters? In today’s world that’d be like a Holocaust survivor seeking out a daughter of Hitler to marry. Good grief the mere thought of it makes me shudder!

Ishmael was driven to kill because of jealousy and pride. Being of the royal family himself, Ishmael wanted Gedahliah out of the scene when he had been made governor of the region. Ishmael was afraid Gedahliah would be receiving more attention, fame and fortune than Ishmael was willing to share from the family inheritance.

So what of Ishmael and why should we care that someone who “supposedly” lived in the same time era had the same name? Should it, or does this even matter in light of eternal matters?

The reason it should matter of course is that this situation is indicative of all Mormon doctrines. Smith was a master of disguise; tweaking the truth just a fraction of reality enabled him to lead his audience down the highway to hell instead of leading the Mormon people on the Highway of Holiness. Using the name of Ishmael serves only one purpose: confusion. Our Father in Heaven assures us this is not part of His character in 1 Cor. 14:33 where Paul says; “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

I honestly cannot think of one good reason why the leader of any so-called Jewish tribesman or prophet would want his sons to marry the daughters of Ishmael.

Additionally, God Himself had always condemned intermarrying with the Ishmaelites. (Lev. 20:1-4) Abraham sent Ishmael and his mother Hagar out to the wilderness when Sarah rejected Hagar and her son. Sarah realized that by having that part of the family around was detrimental to her son Isaac, the object of God’s covenant with mankind. Gen. 16:12 tells us that Ishmael’s hand would always be against the hand of all people and all people’s hands were against him.

The Hebrew name for Ishmael means “that God may hear” or “God hears”. The Lord told Hagar what to name the boy in addition to giving her the assurance that He indeed heard her cry to Him by acknowledging her plight. In addition to that, Hagar was even given a heads up if you will, about the way her son would behave. The boy would be a rude, wild, out of control nomad for all his life. He married an Egyptian and lived for 137 years; his descendants the Muslims claim to be his offspring. They were obviously a source of contention to the Jewish nation just as they are today as God tells us in Genesis 16:12-13. And as you can see the Lord does indeed keep His promises; the Ishmaelites are still living next to their brothers today.

Ishmael has always been the picture of an outsider – whereas Isaac is the picture of an everlasting covenant and grace. The apostle Paul tells us in Gal. 4:24-5 the only thing Hagar could ever do is to bear children in bondage.

In Gen. 24:1-5 we are told of the exchange Abraham had with his servant when he sent him out to fetch a wife for Isaac. The rules were very clear; he made the servant take an oath that he would not bring back a wife for Isaac taken from the Canaanites. How serious do you think God had to be that He’d even make sure people took oaths they wouldn’t intermarry? Additionally Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac as an inheritance; compared to the children of his concubines, he gave only gifts – Gen. 25:5-6. Is there any doubt as to how we are to regard the Ishmaelites now?

In addition to Smith putting a good light on Ishmael in the Book of Mormon we see this again in D&C 132:27-40. This section of LDS scripture is their excuse for polygamy, but as we read the text in context you are given yet another example of how Smith nonchalantly interposed his translation of the Hebrew Bible.

The Mormon will argue that “the promise” spoken of in verses 32-34 says that polygamy is the part of the Law Abraham had to obey in order to receive the promises. The promises of the Torah are much different than those of the JST (Joseph Smith Translation). In the Judeo-Christian Bible the “promise” that God gave to Abraham was a covenant that He made with Abraham through sacrifice. The promise was that Abraham and his children would be saved through obedience and devotion to the God that created them and the universe.

Polygamy was not part of the covenant. There are 613 laws that had to be observed and obeyed by man in order to receive the promise of salvation offered by God. Now if you look in Leviticus chapter eighteen and Deuteronomy chapter seventeen you’ll read where God explicitly says not to touch the skirts of your brother’s wife, et al. However, there is not one single verse in the entire Bible that condones polygamy.

D&C 132:32-34; “Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved. 33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham. 34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.”

In addition to being theologically incorrect in the interpretation of Hebrew in the Bible, Smith also has the dates wrong again. The Law wasn’t given until the time of Moses which was some 330 years after Abraham died. You can read in Exodus twelve that God begins with the ritual of the yearly Passover and then in chapter twenty the Ten Commandments are given to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

I have one more item of interest for the members of the Church. Why do you have to “enter unto the Law” if we are now living under the period of grace? Doesn’t that also negate the purpose of having a double portion because you were born into the Church?

I truly believe that Ishmael has never been nor will ever be a godly, upright, morally clean person. The Bible warns us to stay away throughout the entire Bible and leaves no wiggle room for our own interpretation. Remember 2 Peter 1:20-21 whenever you’re in doubt;

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Moab

In the far southeastern border of Utah lies one of the most beautiful places on earth. While I’m not a big fan of deserts, this area of my beloved Utah will forever remain on my list of favorite places to visit. The rock formations that jut out from the ground show their years of hard winds that have carefully etched their formations. It’s obvious the Lord went in with His fingertips directing which way the winds should blow, how long they should make their presence known and when they should stay quiet. Reds, bright oranges, yellows and browns are the predominant colors that will capture your attention and leave a marked impression on your memory banks of vacations you might take in your life here. The Lord is good that way, He always leaves us with more than we ask or expect from Him.

Just as the Lord commands your awe from the beauty and dangers of the area surrounding Moab, Utah; the oppression from Satan’s presence demands your spiritual attention while visiting the Canyonlands. For anyone who’s had to travel or live in Utah you will understand what I mean when I tell you that you can feel the oppression inside the borders of Utah. Satan is the contributing factor of spiritual desolation in the barren back hills of Utah.

I will always remember the day my family and I were driving from Seattle to Utah for a visit with my mother. About an hour west of the Utah border my daughters began arguing with each other while at the same time I began feeling the “icky feeling” inside of my stomach. Now that we’ve been saved for a few years we all know what is taking place, but without the years of experience of knowing the Lord’s presence and the fruits of the Spirit, it was frustrating. I had always attributed that feeling to “how it was being a Mormon”.

From Gen. 19:27-38 we are told of the time when Lot and his family were rescued from Sodom and Gomorrah. While Lot’s wife didn’t obey and paid the ultimate price Lot and his daughters received God’s mercy and survived the ordeal. They found themselves in a cave up in the mountains in Zoar because of Lot’s fear of tent dwelling in the city. Not turning to the Lord in his time of fear brought on a horrendous event.

While staying in the cave, Lot’s two daughters connived with each other to get their father drunk. After he became drunk they would entice him so that they could get pregnant. They were convinced there were no other men on the face of the earth. From these two nights of drunkenness came two of the most notorious problem clans for the tribe of Israel; Moab and Ammon. Having nothing but an incestuous heritage to brag about, they raised their offspring bent on the destruction of Israel.

Moab in the Hebrew means “from the mother’s father” while Ammon means “inbred”. Nice legacy to leave the family don’t you think? See the article about Ammon.

As you can imagine the Bible doesn’t have many good things to say about the Moabite people until you get to Ruth. The Moabite’s chief god was Chemosh – see for more information on him and also Genesis 14:5.

Their land was to the east of the Dead Sea and continually taken over by various tribes including that of Israel. At the end of an attempt to seize the land of Moab, Mesha king of Moab, sacrificed his own son on the city wall to his god Chemosh when he saw there was nothing left to sacrifice; 2 Kings 3:1-27.

The word Moab appears only one time in the Book of Mormon when Joseph Smith “borrowed” heavily from the book of Isaiah. This is what the dictionary of the Book of Mormon says about Moab;

“The Moabites, descendants of Lot. Their home was the country east of the valley of the Dead Sea. This name only occurs in the Book of Mormon in a quotation from the words of Isaiah (II. Nephi 21:14.)”

So I have a few questions about this as you can imagine.

1 – Why is Moab even mentioned in the Book of Mormon and what purpose did it serve?

2 – How do they (Moabites) fit in with the people of the Book of Mormon?

3 – Why would you intentionally name a town in your sacred land of Utah after an ungodly group of people? After all this isn’t a very common name!

Naming a town in your land of “Zion” after an incestuous line of people and randomly placing this name in your “sacred works” for no apparent reason should speak volumes to the reader. What are you (Joseph Smith) doing???

Laban

1 Nephi 4:2-3, 14-18; “Now behold ye know that this is true; and ye also know that an angel hath spoken unto you; wherefore can ye doubt? Let us go up; the Lord is able to deliver us, even as our fathers, and to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians…And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.”

From the Book of Mormon dictionary it says this;

“LabanA rich, unscrupulous and powerful Israelite of the tribe of Joseph, though a dweller in Jerusalem (B. C. 600). While Lehi and his little company were resting in the valley of Lemuel, that patriarch was commanded of the Lord to send his sons back to Jerusalem to obtain certain records that were in the possession of Laban. The records, which were engraven on plates of brass, being intimately associated with Lehi’s ancestors, were highly necessary for the welfare of his descendants when they established themselves in a new home, far from communication with any other people.”

Well, on this one the Book of Mormon got part of the information correct regarding Laban. He was rich and sometimes unscrupulous. Let’s do what is right and go to His word and a dictionary to learn more about this man.

The first thing we find out about him is that his name means “white”. The Bible tells us that he was the nephew of Abraham and in Gen 24 we find out that Laban and Rebekah were siblings. When it came time for Rebekah to marry we see that Laban and his father were the ones that betrothed her to Isaac.

Fast forward about forty years and we see that Jacob (one of Rebekah’s sons) is finding solace by running to his uncle Laban’s home where he finds Rachel and Leah.

Gen. 29:16; “And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel.”

Now Laban tricked Jacob into marrying his oldest daughter Leah, but Jacob was patient and worked an additional seven years at his uncle’s homestead to earn the hand of Rachel.

From reading just a few chapters in the Bible we find out there is no way that Laban was from the tribe of Joseph. Joseph would’ve been one of Laban’s grandsons!

I find the problem with this particular character in the Book of Mormon to be complex. There is no mention of another Laban in the Bible to my knowledge. Using the same character names in both books serves as another conduit to confusing the already confused people of Mormonism.

My questions are as follows:

– Why would some random Israelite be in possession of the Hebrew writings?

- Why would these “plates of brass” be written in Reformed Egyptian if Laban was an Israelite?

- Why wouldn’t a fellow Israelite give another Israelite something that would benefit all of them?

- What about the Sixth Commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”? (See 1 Nephi 4:10.)

- Why wouldn’t God tell us of writings that needed to be protected during the Babylonian takeover?

- Why was Laban living in a posh house when the rest of Jerusalem lay in utter destruction?

It’s difficult at best to swallow the story about the Laban in the Book of Mormon story. At the supposed time of this happening, King Nebuchadnezzar was campaigning up and down the Palestinian coast with his goal to take over Jerusalem. There was so much ravaging and harassment against the Israelites it’d be a tough sell to think that anyone but the kings would be rich during all of this. (2 Kings 24)

Remember what God told the inhabitants of Judah? In Jeremiah 42:12 we read that God would have compassion upon the Israelites if they stayed put in Judah and not flee to Egypt. He promised them that they would live and have children to raise, but if they left for Egypt they would surely die.

Emer

Ether 9:14; “And it came to pass that Omer began to be old; nevertheless, in his old age he begat Emer; and he anointed Emer to be king to reign in his stead.”

This was one of the strangest names I found in the Book of Mormon. The strangeness didn’t come from Smith or his made up work but what I found in my research about this name. If you do a search on the web for “Emer” you will find an art gallery in Belfast, Emer Vacuums and various blog sites with “Emer” as someone’s screen name. Then if you look up the meaning of “Emer” you’ll find this:

“The Ulstermen searched all over Ireland for a suitable wife for Cúchulainn, but he would have none but Emer. He visited her at Forgall’s house at Lusk, County Dublin, and wooed her by trading cryptic riddles with her. Emer would accept Cúchulainn as a husband, but only when his deeds justified it.”

Okay then. I mean what do you say to something as outlandish as this? And why pray tell is this some righteous person’s name in the Book of Mormon? I guess this type of thing shouldn’t surprise me, but somehow it always does. What are the odds that some off the wall Irish mythological cycle would have the same name as a king in the Book of Mormon? Does this sound like a “Reformed Egyptian” or even Jewish name to you?

From the dictionary of the Book of Mormon it says this about Emer;

“One of the early kings of the Jaredites. Two years before his death, Omer, his father, anointed him to reign in his stead. Emer was one of the best kings of his race…Emer’s was a lengthy reign; sixty-two years are mentioned; but it is not evident whether this period covers the whole of his reign or not. When he died, full of years and honor, he was succeeded by one of his numerous sons, named Coriantum, whom he had anointed king four years before his death. It is recorded of Emer that he saw the Son of Righteousness, and did rejoice and glorify in his day.”

Neum

1 Nephi 19:10; “And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum…”

Now this name caught my attention after watching a program on television about the Mayan people and their culture. As the host of the show went about explaining the gods of this people one of the names caught my attention: Naum.

In Mayan mythology Naum is the god who invented the mind and consciousness. In the Book of Mormon Neum is a prophet that is mentioned only once in the first book of Nephi who prophesied of Christ.

Interestingly enough I found it difficult to find any information about Neum from the Mormon perspective. Everywhere I looked he was mentioned briefly and only with a few other “prophets” who supposedly prophesied of the coming Christ and each reference was the same, that being 1 Nephi 19:10.

Could it be there was no such person as Neum from the Book of Mormon times? How ironic it is that this name of all names would appear when the scholars of Mormonism claim that the people from the Book of Mormon settled in all places; Mesoamerica, the area of the Mayans! The odds of such a “coincidence” boggle the mind…

Here’s what the Book of Mormon dictionary and the Liahona had to say about him;

“NUEM – [sic] A Hebrew prophet, quoted by Nephi (I. Nephi 19:10). He prophesied that the Son of God should be crucified.”

Liahona, June 2000, pg. 18, Clyde Williams;

"Ultimately, to follow the prophets is to follow Jesus Christ. All of the Book of Mormon prophets taught of the Savior and of the need to accept and follow Him (see Jacob 7:11; Mosiah 13:33). For example:

The ancient prophets Zenos, Zenock, and Neum testified of Christ and His Atonement (see 1 Ne. 19:10).”

You’d think that if something of this magnitude were to take place that a little more than one sentence would be mentioned of this prophet! Isaiah was given miraculous words from the Lord about the coming birth of Christ in 7:14 and His death in Isaiah chapter 53. One little line from Neum and virtually nothing else is known about him or Zenos or Zenock!

– Who was this great prophet?

- Where did he come from?

- Where did he live?

- How did he die?

- What other things did he know or say?

- Did he love the people like Isaiah loved the Israelites?

- Why was he given the name “Neum”?

I find these names to be so outrageous and far-fetched that it’s impossible to give them a moment’s time of serious contemplation in favor of being credible. As a stark contrast, let’s look at the Old Testament prophet Isaiah. His prophecies were big, his heart broke for his people and we have some background information about him!

The name Isaiah means Yahweh saves and he ministered in Judah from about 740 to 701 BC. He was married and had two sons. Isaiah became a martyr when he refused to retract his prophecies of judgment and was sawn in two. This is what Holman Bible dictionary has to say about his ministry and the time he served;

“…lived during the reigns of the Judean kings Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, and perhaps the first years of Manasseh. He was contemporary with the last five kings of Israel: Menahem, Pekahiah, Pekah, and Hosea. The tragic fall of Samaria to the Assyrian King Sargon II in 722 B.C. occurred during his ministry…the son of Amoz, was born in Judah, no doubt in Jerusalem, about 760 B.C. He enjoyed a significant position in the contemporary society and had a close relationship with the reigning monarchs.”

The list of what this man did is extensive, suffice it to say that you could spend eternity learning about him and the paltry story of Neum pales in comparison.

If you’re LDS I would ask that you just stop and think about these differences and think on the ways that God truly supplies for us compared to the lack of insight with the Book of Mormon.

With Love in Christ;

Michelle


TOPICS: History; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; bookofmormon; demonic; lds; mormon
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To: T. P. Pole; All
Other times things are misrepresented or stated out of context, sometimes it appears intentionally, sometimes in error. For example, the claim that Joseph Smith is who approves our admittance into heaven. Again, technically that is not true, but explaining that completely would take pages. In short, we feel the leaders of each dispensation will testify as to what law was binding at that time (for example, sacrificing animals versus faith/baptism). That doesn’t mean that Moses or Joseph Smith will judge us or admit us to heaven. Christ still judges us. Like I said, it would take pages to explain that well. I also recognize that these misstatements or misrepresentations happen on both sides of the discussion. And I trust that most of these are unintentional or innocent. But there are some that clearly repeat falsehoods, even when corrected.

You know..T.P. if you to a middle chart at a link...you can find over a dozen Mormon authoritative references to this: Mormon Tabernacle Choir conductor: 'Praise to the Man'...hymn praises Joseph Smith [Smithmas vanity]

I find it rather difficult to believe...that had you lived in SLC circa pre civil war & early civil war times ... you would tell a certain tabernacle speaker ... nope you are statin a falsity upon sayin...: no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world;

Or...1974...as deseret book co...owned by ldsism...said: Deseret Book Co. publishes a book of discourses and writings of one of its top three hierarchists from the 19th century, George Q. Cannon, who announces: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (Lds "apostle" George Q. Cannon) Editor Jerreld L. Newquist, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, Vol. 1, p. 255 Deseret Book Co.

61 posted on 10/28/2014 10:54:44 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: T. P. Pole; All

Anybody looking at the linked chart I provided last post about lds “prophets” and first presidents referencing Smith as being the heavenly kingdom “passport” or “consenter” or kingDom “certificate” provider or as the absolute one we need to confess alongside Jesus would be quite bewildered if you had been there during any of those public statements when they were made had you said to each leader...”well what you are claiming is not ‘technically true’”...you see you must think you can get away with making this an issue about me and my alleged misinterpretation...when anybody taking these statements at face value...in context and even not if these words are to carry basic straightforward meaning...can see for themselves what these leaders claimed about smith...throw thsee leaders under the bus if you must...stop blaming me for their having been historically uttered


62 posted on 10/28/2014 12:45:50 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: T. P. Pole; Colofornian
You mention the "law of consecration". This is a part of the vows taken in the mormon temple ceremony wherein mormons

You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Endowment ceremony

Mitt Romney has made this vow, which IMO precludes his worthiness to become POTUS...and the electorage agreed.

63 posted on 10/28/2014 3:12:46 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Valerie Jarrett warned us they would "get even with those who opposed them"..)
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To: Elsie

I think there is a ventriloquist hanging out with you. Someone just put words in Mrs. Elsies mouth. And I know the old goat.


64 posted on 10/28/2014 3:26:30 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: Colofornian
It is sort of funny the reaction I got when I tried to be gracious and civil.

I was very careful when bringing up the 100%s to not suggest that you were one of them. But somehow you appear to think that I was, and use that misunderstanding to suggesting I am lying.

You are the one that is taking what I said personally. I specifically worded it to not include you or anyone specific. I said "some of the posters here". Seems that you might be over sensitive to the claim.

...I at least attempt not to misrepresent what other FReepers have said - LOL

I love how you claim that my non-specific statement was making it personal, and then you make it directly personal towards me. With the standards applied by the Religion Moderator, I try to be very careful not to "read minds" or attribute motive.

65 posted on 10/28/2014 6:59:08 PM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: Utah Binger

Hey, guy.
Driving to Colorado next week, hows the weather generally on the 70?
The first week of November, its 300 miles longer going the 40.


66 posted on 10/28/2014 8:27:32 PM PDT by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: T. P. Pole; All
Sometimes the mis-statements are made in error, or are presented as opinion. For example, up-thread you said ‘tithe — what Lds reference as the “Law of consecration”’ Technically that is not true. I trust you were not intentionally lying, but that you were copying something that had that error already in it. And in the end, it really doesn’t change the point you were trying to make - that there are a lot of “rules” in Mormonism.

T.P. PLEASE take note of ALL of the Lds "scriptures" & Lds leaders comments that follow re: tithing. (And whoever else reads, read, mark, learn, digest, etc. how a false obfuscation goes on here...I don't know if it's all intentional or not...I just have a tough time believing that somebody like T.P. would be as unaware of these Mormonosities as what follows):

1

When I go to my trusty 1977 Deseret Book Co. A Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"...for its entry on "tithing" (p. 459), I find 16 Biblical references that Mormon leaders have made re: this word/subject...plus two from the Book of Mormon (Alma 13:15 and 3 Nephi 24:8 re: "robbing" God in "tithes and offerings") + four verses in the Lds "scriptures" of Doctrine & Covenants:
* for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his... (D&C 64:23) Lds.org cites D&C 64:23 thusly: “In the present dispensation, the law of tithing was revived, and the keeping of that law is one of the FIRST duties of the Latter-day Saints. September 11, 1831, about eighteen months after the organization of the church, the Lord, through Joseph, the Seer, made this important declaration. Speaking after the manner of the Lord, he called ‘today,’ from the giving of the revelation until the coming of the Son of Man, and said, ‘Verily, it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at His coming. For after today cometh the burning,’ that is, at the coming of the Son of Man, ‘for verily I say, tomorrow’ – that is, at the Lord’s coming – ‘all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts.” (D&C 64:23, 24.)

Are you now claiming you didn't know T.P. that tithing was a 'first duty' of a Latter-day Saint, per Lds.org???


* 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. 5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. (D&C 119:1-5)

Are you seriously unaware of these two D&C passages, T.P.?

2

T.P....before I stated in post #5 -- what you somehow objected to above -- re: (2) You HAVE TO tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"...I made-sure I did almost a whole day's research several years ago before elaborating. How did I accomplish that?

I spent a goodly amount of time reviewing the word "laws" and dozens & dozens of contexts as how that word was contextualized in various articles at Lds.org. My conclusion? If you look at Lds.org like I did -- in fact, EVERY single entry -- they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?

It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing (yes, also known as the Law of Consecration)
(2) The Law of Chastity

T.P. Are you now claiming that Lds.org isn't very "authoritative" for you or other Mormons?

3

Yes T.P. Lds 'prophet' Joseph Fielding Smith equated 'the Law of Consecration' as 'the law of tithing'

4

* Joseph Fielding Smith states: “In the stead of this higher law [the law of consecration], the Lord gave to the Saints a schoolmaster, as he did ancient Israel to teach them and bring them to the fulness of the gospel of Christ. This is the law of tithing.

* “The law of tithing, as embodied in the revelations referred to, [in Sec. 119], is an immutable decree of Jehovah to His people, and admits of no evasion by those who would enjoy the blessings of the faithful on the land of Zion, or be classed among the righteous, and avoid the burning at the coming of our Lord.” (Principles of the Gospel, pp. 174-177.)

(T.P. "immutable = unchanging)

5 Other Lds 'prophets' & 'apostles'

* Other revealed doctrines at the root of our religion include the Creation, the Resurrection, the law of tithing, prayer, and the consummate blessings of the temple. (Russell Nelson, official Lds church publication Liahona May 2004)

This Mormon link is now inactive...but listed "The Law of Tithing" as a key Mormon commandment...among...
The Commandments
Obedience to God's Commandments
Pray Often
Study the Scriptures
Keep the Sabbath Day Holy
Baptism and Confirmation
Follow the Prophet
Live the Law of Chastity
Obey the Word of Wisdom
Live the Law of Tithing
Observe the Law of the Fast
Obey and Honor the Law

* Law of consecration or The Law of Tithing: Definition: “The law of tithing is the law of revenue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Teachings of the President of the Church: Joseph F. Smith) Joseph F. Smith on law of tithing

* Why Instituted
We know of no better statement as to why the Lord revealed the law of tithing than that made by President Joseph F. Smith at the general conference of the Church in April, 1900. “Why the Law of Tithing Was Instituted – The Lord revealed to his people in the incipiency of his work a law which was more perfect than the law of tithing. It comprehended larger things, greater power, and a more speedy accomplishment of the purposes of the Lord. But the people were unprepared to live by it, and the Lord, out of mercy to the people, suspended the more perfect law [the law of consecration and stewardship], and gave the law of tithing, in order that there might be means in the storehouse of the Lord for the carrying out of the purposes he had in view; for the gathering of the poor, for the spreading of the gospel to the nations of the earth, for the maintenance of those who were required to give their constant attention, day in and day out, to the work of the Lord, and for whom it was necessary to make some provision. Without this law these things could not be done, neither could temples be built and maintained, nor the poor fed and clothed. Therefore the law of tithing is necessary for the Church, so much so that the Lord has laid great stress upon it.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 282.)

* “The law of tithing, is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, towards spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel.” (Lds "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 283.) ….

* Prosperity Comes to Those Who Obey the Law
“The law of financial prosperity to the Latter-day Saints, under covenant with God, is to be an honest tithe payer, and not to rob the Lord in tithes and offerings. Prosperity comes to those who observe the law of tithing. When I say prosperity I am not thinking of it in terms of dollars and cents alone, although as a rule the Latter-day Saints who are the best tithe payers are the most prosperous men, financially. But what I call as real prosperity, as the one thing of all others that is of great value to every man and woman living, is the growth in a knowledge of God, and in a testimony, and in the power to live the gospel and to inspire our families to do the same.” (Lds "prophet" Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, p. 58.)

(There's MANY other references contained in Lds.org...the above should suffice)

67 posted on 10/28/2014 8:58:49 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Utah Binger
ventriloquist

Leave Dunham outta this!

I can be a dummy on my own!

68 posted on 10/29/2014 4:34:36 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
Driving to Colorado next week, hows the weather generally on the 70?

From where?

69 posted on 10/29/2014 4:36:03 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
I am not saying that the law of tithing isn't a law. You're the one that is misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that the law of consecration and the law of tithing are two different things. They are not equal.

Look at your number 4. The law of consecration is described as a higher law. And in stead of the higher law, the saints were given a [lower] law to teach them. Sort of to prepare them for the higher law.

I have to admit your Joseph F Smith quote puzzled me, especially since that is a dead link. So I went and found a direct link to the manual - here. The word "consecration" is not in that chapter. The quote you have is about halfway down the page (with the footnote marker #9). I am thinking you created the heading "Law of consecration or The Law of Tithing: Definition:" for your own notes. It is not in the original.

As I said, my true statement that "law of consecration" does not equal "law of tithing" did not change the point you were making in your posting - that there are a lot of rules in Mormonism. That indeed is true, and the law of tithing is one of them. Never said otherwise.

70 posted on 10/29/2014 5:39:53 AM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: svcw

I would say that it is pretty good. Are you coming through Vegas? If so take a side trip through Zion National Park and over to meet Highway 89. A very beautiful route to 70 this time of year. You can stop in here and say hello....


71 posted on 10/29/2014 6:03:53 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: Elsie

California


72 posted on 10/29/2014 7:00:41 AM PDT by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: T. P. Pole
"What I don’t respect is that there are some here that seem to feel it is ok to lie about Mormonism."

The problem with this statement right out of the gate is that when a mormon or a defender accuses a dissenter of mormonISM of lying and challenged on it, there is usually no reply or response...a couple of posters come to mind. In effect, they've lied in order to accuse someone else of lying...

In addition, lies of ommission are just as bad as an outright falsehood...would you agree?

73 posted on 10/29/2014 7:11:59 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Utah Binger

...and get a hat and coffee!


74 posted on 10/29/2014 9:32:09 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: T. P. Pole
You're the one that is misinterpreting what I am saying.

Number 10...


 

Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

75 posted on 10/29/2014 9:33:44 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian

It does get weird around here. Unfortunately there are those on both sides that aren’t completely accurate in their statements. I do, however, excuse most of them as ignorance. Thankfully it appears that there are very few that maliciously do this.

I was working on a longer answer, but decided against it. Not really any value to bringing up old issues.


76 posted on 10/30/2014 10:45:40 AM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: T. P. Pole

Understood...I try to ensure accuracy and to limit anecdotals...and if needing correction, I am open to it.

FRegards,
SZ


77 posted on 10/30/2014 1:39:08 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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