I'm somewhat surprised you did not delve into the Greek of 1 Cor 5. Job I have already mentioned, and I don't consider it character building, as it is incongruent with 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?. If you are convinced of it, would that suggest you think the LORD could do the same to anyone of us who is not in serious, unrepentant sin, hanging us over to Satan to build our character ? I find the concept preposterous. Job was a lamb, a symbol of Jesus after a manner. < p>As for Gal 5:12, I'm going with the Protestant KJV in this discussion. I don't cherry pick translations to make a point. I now expect you to use the same translation throughout, NAB is it ? Look at the four usages of the word and consider carefully that neither hands, nor feet, nor ear are mentioned. What is common to all ? A sword (or long knife); you have to go somewhere else (Phil 3:2) to get that sense;
Overthrowing the faith if some is a sin worthy of death, so I still hold Hymenaus and Alexander incurred that penalty. Dying of some horrid disease and knowing it was from God would teach them not to blaspheme. Using words of strong language with no power other than barring them from fellowship is really a stretch.
As for torture, execution, or murder of Jews or Gentiles done in the name of Jesus for religious reasons other than I specified (ie., not a criminal, just happens to have a different faith or interpretation), be they Catholic, Protestant, or Other, I categorically hold it to be wrong and unjust; I condemn it. I hold to my points about apostles, prophets, and angels being legitimate bringers of death as per the Biblical examples. Those were not murders. In general, I think the Gentiles who claim the name have been as lacking in fidelity to, and love for, to the LORD as Israel, with some generations of both being desperately wicked with almost no remedial value. There is an awesome day of judgment coming.
Chapter and verse?
And even if it is, WHOSE responsibility is it?
God did NOT delegate it to man.
If a man is to die for an injustice, it's GOD'S place to make that determination and carry out the sentence.
Torturing and killing people for dissenting against a denomination's cherished beliefs is murder, plain and simple, and the Catholic church not only has blood on its hands for such an action, but it is DRENCHED in the blood of all those whom it martyred, certainly worthy of the ultimate death sentence.
I am also appalled at the silence of the other FRoman Catholics on FR. I KNOW this thread is being read and watched and yet what we don't see here is ANY other Catholics denouncing the murder of heretics, the support of murdering heretics, or the Inquisition.
I guess you find out who your friends really are.
If you think the Greek will help you here go to it, while as with this issue of the church executing men, you are missing the point of Job as regards being delivered over to the devil, despite my explaining it, which somehow you seem blind to.
Which is that this can be a means of refinement of character or to bring repentance, though it can also bring death, either by the devil using nature or men, both of which was the case with Job's servants, offspring and property. And as the devil is a murderer, so would death have been the end with Job if God has not placed the devil on a leash, "only upon himself put not forth thine hand." (v. 12) The Lord also healed a a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan had bound for eighteen years. (Luke 13:16)
Thus your attempt to make 1Cor. 5 refer to death simply because the person at issue was not a Job is absurd, as it remains that to be delivered over to the devil means one will go thru negative experiences, which can be death but also can work repentance as well as refinement of character. And the purpose of this punishment in 1Cor. 5 was that the soul may be saved, thus if the person repented then there would be deliverance.
And if anything, that alone is just what is indicated. Paul delivered this man over in union with the church, and in 2 Corinthians 2:6-8 he refers to the punishment of a man who had done wrong and was punished, stating "Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him." Later on in 7:11,12 Paul again refers the one who had done the wrong and commends the Corinthians dealing with this. As there is only one individual who is described as being so punished, so it is congruous that this is the one referred to.
As for Gal 5:12, I'm going with the Protestant KJV in this discussion. How conveniently Protestant of you, though other RCs attack it, and I referred to your primary English Bible as that is sanctioned by your bishops (assuming you are American), while the the KJV is not.
Look at the four usages of the word and consider carefully that neither hands, nor feet, nor ear are mentioned.
What? Rather, the word apokoptō - which occurs 6 times - simply means "off," but nowhere in the NT is it used for cutting off the life of someone, but instead it is 3 human appebfadges and a rope that is mentioned:
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mar 9:43)
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mar 9:45)
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. (Joh 18:10)
One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? (Joh 18:26)
Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off. (Act 27:32)
Thus it easily could denote castration, while there is nothing wrong with the more literal KJV rendering it "cut off,"
Strike 2.
Overthrowing the faith if some is a sin worthy of death, so I still hold Hymenaus and Alexander incurred that penalty.
By that rational we can add 40 more things that Paul delivered souls over to death for, yet as said, this was that they may learn something, and which is consistent with Paul's earnest striving to bring rebellious souls in the church to repentance.
As for torture, execution, or murder of Jews or Gentiles done in the name of Jesus for religious reasons other than I specified (ie., not a criminal, just happens to have a different faith or interpretation), be they Catholic, Protestant, or Other, I categorically hold it to be wrong and unjust; I condemn it.
Very good, if only you had come out and stated this clearly at the beginning of your posting, as it should have been obvious that this was this real issue.
That souls can be chastened or executed by spiritual means, even by righteous praying believers, is a given, as is that the OT required capital punishment.
1. Idolatry
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5. Not resting and humbling yourself on the Day of Atonement |
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7. Imitating sacred incense, or anointing a stranger with it |
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27. Afflicting any widow, or fatherless child (Divine execution) |
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