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To: metmom
The problem with purgatory is that it can’t contribute to the forgiveness of sins.

Suffering does not result in forgiveness because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

The shedding of blood is the ONLY means by which forgiveness is granted.

So at the very least, purgatory is useless, meaningless suffering.

I am pretty sure that David suffered: 2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

2 Samuel 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

2 Samuel 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

2 Samuel 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

2 Samuel 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

Please keep talking!

290 posted on 10/05/2014 4:56:26 AM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertarian)
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To: verga
So what if David suffered?

It did not earn him forgiveness of sin.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

293 posted on 10/05/2014 5:54:20 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: verga; metmom; CynicalBear; caww

I am pretty sure that David suffered: 2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.


So why does the priest prescribe “ten ‘Our Fathers’ and ten ‘Hail Marys’” instead of thirty lashes? After all, you believe we need to “suffer” for forgiveness.

You really should learn the concepts of “grace” and “mercy.”


304 posted on 10/05/2014 7:17:42 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (Why do you need a fire extinguisher when you can call the fire department?)
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To: verga; metmom
Hi verga.  MM is right on with categories here.  The suffering of chastisement is of great value to one who is already a child of God, and a living person, not dead. But to those who have died unredeemed, suffering is either pure retribution for sin, or simply the inescapable, natural consequence of the absence of God's favor, but in any case final, and not a system of progressive remediation (cf. purgatory as an analog to reincarnation and it's adverse theological consequences). But I am unaware of any place in the Scriptures we share in common where it is presented as remedial for those who have passed from this life (even those in a supposed "state of grace," which is double-speak, because what good is a partial grace that provides no relief from the full measure of guilt?) :

Heb 9:27-28  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  (28)  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So the model we have for the atonement, the death of Christ, and the judgment for our sin in Him, is based on the general model of dying once, then facing judgment, for all of humanity.  But for the fact that our judgment as believers was already executed in the execution of Christ, we would upon death stand naked before God with no excuse for our sin, no mitigation of our just punishment for it, and no remediation offered, no relief from guilt in a million lifetimes of suffering, but only judgment, just as the writer of Hebrews says.

Peace,

SR


315 posted on 10/05/2014 7:58:14 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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