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To: ronnietherocket3; redleghunter; Alex Murphy; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; ...
So Purgatory was a belief present in Judaism by around 70 BC and shows up in the Catholic Church and you want to make the claim it entered the Church after the time of the Apostles? By the way, it shows up in the only branch of Judaism that survived the destruction of the temple.

Meaning, you want to valid an unScriptural practice based upon the premise that some Jews did it during the very late intertestamental period, which followed a surprisingly innovative period???

Under such Roman reasoning you need not stop there, but can adopt many many more things, such as the many superstitions recorded in the Talmud.

If you do happen to drink an even number of cups of wine and so leave yourself a target for demons, there is a way to protect yourself: “He should take his right thumb in his left hand, and his left thumb in his right hand, and say as follows: ‘You, my thumbs, and I are three, which is not a pair.’ ” If a demon should overhear this and try to turn the tables by adding, “You and I are four”—which is an even number—then you can do him one better by saying, “You and I are five.” If the demon says six, you say seven, and so on indefinitely: On one occasion, the Gemara relates, “there was an incident in which someone kept counting after the demon until he reached a hundred and one, and the demon burst in anger.”

And there are other ways to defeat a demon. One man was tricked by his vengeful ex-wife into drinking an even number of cups of wine—after he drank 16 cups, he lost count, understandably enough—and so he was bewitched. He solved the problem by hugging a palm tree, whereupon the demon was transferred to the tree, which dried up and burst. (According to an alternative interpretation, however, it was the man himself who burst.) -http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/148936/daf-yomi-54 [Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 110a; http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Pesachim.pdf]

106 posted on 10/04/2014 2:33:42 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
So THAT's where liar's poker comes from. ;^')

I never could get the hang of that game...

111 posted on 10/04/2014 3:22:43 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...they murdered some of them bums...for thinking wrong thoughts)
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To: daniel1212
Meaning, you want to valid an unScriptural practice based upon the premise that some Jews did it during the very late intertestamental period, which followed a surprisingly innovative period???

There are a few criticisms that show up on debates concerning purgatory:

The problem with the first is that it shows up in Jewish tradition. I doubt the (orthodox) Jews are willy nilly adopting pagan practices as the Doctrine of the Trinity leads them to speculate that Christianity is Idol Worship. The problem with the second is that your source admits that Purgatory had developed by over half a century before Christ and a century prior to His Crucifixion. So the concept of Purgatory dates back to before the Apostles.

Now we are stuck with the final stumbling block Scripture. And we are back to the Sola Scripture vs Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium debate.

Concerning the passages of Talmud you cited, did you look up any commentaries written by Jews on them? The first paragraph can be summarized that if tormented by a demon, resist it until it gives up. The second one is interesting. A date palm gives the lulav fruit which is used for Passover. According to Jewish tradition, a lulav has taste but no smell to represent those who have studied Torah but do not have good deeds. Someone who is drinking 16 cups of probably does not have good deeds.
255 posted on 10/04/2014 8:41:31 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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To: daniel1212

LOL the man needed the Palm tree to keep from falling down on the ground.

Plus what if the tree was pine or oak?


771 posted on 10/06/2014 11:40:47 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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