Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: daniel1212
Meaning, you want to valid an unScriptural practice based upon the premise that some Jews did it during the very late intertestamental period, which followed a surprisingly innovative period???

There are a few criticisms that show up on debates concerning purgatory:

The problem with the first is that it shows up in Jewish tradition. I doubt the (orthodox) Jews are willy nilly adopting pagan practices as the Doctrine of the Trinity leads them to speculate that Christianity is Idol Worship. The problem with the second is that your source admits that Purgatory had developed by over half a century before Christ and a century prior to His Crucifixion. So the concept of Purgatory dates back to before the Apostles.

Now we are stuck with the final stumbling block Scripture. And we are back to the Sola Scripture vs Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium debate.

Concerning the passages of Talmud you cited, did you look up any commentaries written by Jews on them? The first paragraph can be summarized that if tormented by a demon, resist it until it gives up. The second one is interesting. A date palm gives the lulav fruit which is used for Passover. According to Jewish tradition, a lulav has taste but no smell to represent those who have studied Torah but do not have good deeds. Someone who is drinking 16 cups of probably does not have good deeds.
255 posted on 10/04/2014 8:41:31 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies ]


To: ronnietherocket3; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; Greetings_Puny_Humans; Gamecock; ...
The problem with the first is that it shows up in Jewish tradition. I doubt the (orthodox) Jews are willy nilly adopting pagan practices as the Doctrine of the Trinity leads them to speculate that Christianity is Idol Worship.

"Willy nilly" is not what we are dealing with, but why would you ever doubt that some Jews could modify a pagan practice in the light of Scripture and history?

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? (Acts 7:42)

Kabbalah its origins in pagan magic and mysticism: http://www.talmidi.co.il/htm/articles/articles58.htm

The problem with the second is that your source admits that Purgatory had developed by over half a century before Christ and a century prior to His Crucifixion. So the concept of Purgatory dates back to before the Apostles.

That is simply your problem not mine. That some Jews did what is not in Scripture after a surprisingly innovative period only testifies to spiritual declension, not orthodoxy.

What you desperately need but will never ever find is at least one example of someone on earth other than pagans praying to created beings in Heaven, and of them having the Divine ability and position to hear virtually infinite prayers addressed to them, which only God is shown having,

Now we are stuck with the final stumbling block Scripture. And we are back to the Sola Scripture vs Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium debate.

Meaning since you cannot find it in Scripture you need to channel it into doctrine from another source.

Concerning the passages of Talmud you cited, did you look up any commentaries written by Jews on them?

Do you really want to follow Jewish tradition and some of the nonsense in the Babylonian Talmud, at least from some of what i read?

--"There were two things which God first thought of creating on the eve of the Sabbath, which, however, were not created till after the Sabbath had closed. The first was fire, which Adam by divine suggestion drew forth by striking together two stones; and the second was the mule, produced by the crossing of two different animals." -- P'sachim, fol. 54, col 1.

--"The Rabbis have taught that there are three reasons why a person should not enter a ruin: 1. Because he may be suspected of evil intent; 2. Because the walls might tumble upon him; 3. And because of evil spirits that frequent such places." -- Berachoth, fol. 3, col 1.

--"The stone which Og, King of Bashan, meant to throw upon Israel is the subject of a tradition delivered on Sinai. 'The camp of Israel I see,' he said, 'extends three miles; I shall therefore go and root up a mountain three miles in extent and throw it upon them.'

So off he went, and finding such a mountain, raised it on his head, but the Holy One -- blessed be He! -- sent an army of ants against him, which so bored the mountain over his head that it slipped down upon his shoulders, from which he could not lift it, because his teeth, protruding, had riveted it upon him." -- Berachoth, fol. 54, col. 2.

--"Three things are said respecting the finger-nails: He who trims his nails and buries the parings is a pious man; he who burns these is a righteous man; but he who throws them away is a wicked man, for mischance might follow, should a female step over them." -- Moed Katan, fol. 18, col 1.

Gittin 69a. To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic." - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/closer.htm

Just as partial list, and i cautiously presume they are legit despite the source,.

265 posted on 10/04/2014 9:40:27 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies ]

To: ronnietherocket3

The problem with purgatory is that it can’t contribute to the forgiveness of sins.

Suffering does not result in forgiveness because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

The shedding of blood is the ONLY means by which forgiveness is granted.

So at the very least, purgatory is useless, meaningless suffering.


284 posted on 10/05/2014 1:00:08 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson