Posted on 10/03/2014 2:33:43 PM PDT by NYer
Daniel, you put in a lot of work for your post, thank you, I really appreciate it. Very informative.
I think the reason might be twofold - one, they don't believe the proof, no matter how compelling and historical, simply because it contradicts what some esteemed RC (by them) wrote on a blog or in a book. And, second - though this is sinister and I hesitate to say it - some KNOW the truth but care more about roping into Catholicism someone who doesn't or simply to denigrate a "Protestant" every chance they get in hopes of converting someone out. Either way, it shows an abysmal lack of integrity coming from those who think they are superior to others in the faith. I pray sincere seekers of truth see through the facade.
All the Church Fathers were CATHOLIC.
The Bible is a Catholic document. The Bible came about as a result of the Catholic Church, not the first baptist church of billy bob. Have a nice night.
"Willy nilly" is not what we are dealing with, but why would you ever doubt that some Jews could modify a pagan practice in the light of Scripture and history?
Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? (Acts 7:42)
Kabbalah its origins in pagan magic and mysticism: http://www.talmidi.co.il/htm/articles/articles58.htm
The problem with the second is that your source admits that Purgatory had developed by over half a century before Christ and a century prior to His Crucifixion. So the concept of Purgatory dates back to before the Apostles.
That is simply your problem not mine. That some Jews did what is not in Scripture after a surprisingly innovative period only testifies to spiritual declension, not orthodoxy.
What you desperately need but will never ever find is at least one example of someone on earth other than pagans praying to created beings in Heaven, and of them having the Divine ability and position to hear virtually infinite prayers addressed to them, which only God is shown having,
Now we are stuck with the final stumbling block Scripture. And we are back to the Sola Scripture vs Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium debate.
Meaning since you cannot find it in Scripture you need to channel it into doctrine from another source.
Concerning the passages of Talmud you cited, did you look up any commentaries written by Jews on them?
Do you really want to follow Jewish tradition and some of the nonsense in the Babylonian Talmud, at least from some of what i read?
--"There were two things which God first thought of creating on the eve of the Sabbath, which, however, were not created till after the Sabbath had closed. The first was fire, which Adam by divine suggestion drew forth by striking together two stones; and the second was the mule, produced by the crossing of two different animals." -- P'sachim, fol. 54, col 1.
--"The Rabbis have taught that there are three reasons why a person should not enter a ruin: 1. Because he may be suspected of evil intent; 2. Because the walls might tumble upon him; 3. And because of evil spirits that frequent such places." -- Berachoth, fol. 3, col 1.
--"The stone which Og, King of Bashan, meant to throw upon Israel is the subject of a tradition delivered on Sinai. 'The camp of Israel I see,' he said, 'extends three miles; I shall therefore go and root up a mountain three miles in extent and throw it upon them.'
So off he went, and finding such a mountain, raised it on his head, but the Holy One -- blessed be He! -- sent an army of ants against him, which so bored the mountain over his head that it slipped down upon his shoulders, from which he could not lift it, because his teeth, protruding, had riveted it upon him." -- Berachoth, fol. 54, col. 2.
--"Three things are said respecting the finger-nails: He who trims his nails and buries the parings is a pious man; he who burns these is a righteous man; but he who throws them away is a wicked man, for mischance might follow, should a female step over them." -- Moed Katan, fol. 18, col 1.
Gittin 69a. To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.
Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.
Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.
Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."
Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.
Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.
Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.
Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic." - http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/closer.htm
Just as partial list, and i cautiously presume they are legit despite the source,.
“And now you know the Biblical position!”
I do - and that’s why I am Catholic because the Catholic faith IS the Biblical position.
St. Paul said “all scripture”. I believe St. Paul more than I believe you.
Especially a redacted, poorly translated Bible.
antisemitic
I am not a Jew but a Christian. There is nothing anti-Semitic in this statement.
Unfortunately you left out the key to the entire New Testament!
No actually the key to the entire bible was said by Jesus in two lines.
LOVE is the KEY!
Luke 10:26-28 New International Version (NIV)
26 What is written in the Law? he replied. How do you read it?
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.
28 You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live.
John 13:34New International Version (NIV)
34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
You omit the stated fact Paul was trying to get across: That we are not “under” the law because Yeshua has replaced the defective will of men to obey with the perfect will of the Father, by writing Torah on our hearts, thus if we are in him, we obey all of Torah perfectly, unto our ultimate righteousness, our “garment” required for the wedding feast.
Yeshua has replaced the defective will of men
Please give me scripture of our defective will being replaced. Our will is still as defective as Adam and Eves will. As a believer my corrupted nature has the Blood of Christ covering it so that God only sees Christs Perfect Blood and not my defective nature, but that doesnt mean my defective will has been replaced.
by writing Torah on our hearts, thus if we are in him, we obey all of Torah perfectly
Well then if the Torah is on our hearts I guess you are still sacrificing Bulls, Rams. Lambs, and etc.. at least once a year for your sins. Good luck with that since salvation is by faith only as Jesus already did all the works.
unto our ultimate righteousness
Sorry, but righteousness is credited by faith and faith alone.
Now the correct version is to say that if we Love our Heavenly Father with all our Heart and Soul and Love one another as Christ Loves us we fulfill the law as our Lord and Savior did. That does not mean we are to live by it!
Love Never Fails, 1 Corinthians 13
By your logic Septuagint should not have been in the composition that it actually is. Yet somehow, for some reason you cannot explain, the Septuagint included the Deuterocanon.
“During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.
“When Elizabeth heard Marys greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, ‘Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.’”
...Luke 1:39-45, NABRE.
“Bible Christians”? God bless them, I wish they were.
You disregard the word.
Try reading John’s first epistle.
It makes it plain that he who sins is not in Yeshua.
It defines sin as transgression of Torah.
Love will not permit transgression of Torah, as he that loves Yeshua follows his commandments.
Your simplistic attempt at avoidance of obedience is comic book theology, and theology of any kind is contrary to the word of God.
Churchianity is what you offer, the club of the wide path.
You’ll have lots of company, and lots of tears.
.
It is stunning, even dumbfounding. How could there be so much brick hard denial? Yet too, this pretense of their arguments never having been shown to be less solid than they need to be to actually fly is like kabuki theater played out for possible audiences who have not yet seen it -- and those who have seen it but not followed things closely enough in the past (like -- the typical casual reader?) will be continued to be lead their way, gambling the continued empty assertions, denials, distractions & bluffing will save the day.
If it is motivations that could be spoken of -- instead of necessarily trying to rope anyone in (though there is a bit of that all along) it seems to me to be more intensely focused along lines of self-reassurance, and keeping the rest of the RC sheeples in line with the common present-day RC apologetic -- no matter how many times and in how many ways significant elements of that has been falsified, if only just in part, but falsified enough to need the argument to be entirely reworded.
It doesn't help matters that the history of many things do not lay in straight lines.
The apologetic continually attempts to present itself to be that way (straight), but it is a crooked path on the best of honest days because there were human beings involved, all along each and every path...
There is where the mystical/magical "the Church will never err" type of thinking then kicks in (while identifying "The Church" as being the Roman Catholic one, etc.)--- needing to compartmentalize any troubles or contradiction -- and through painstaking massaging and application of special pleadings and unequally, inconsistently applied measurements of comparison, arrive at the place where no matter what --- "they" (an infamous "they", again) can tell themselves every OTHER ecclesiastical body has erred and is wrong, but not the one with the Roman Pontiff.
Even the original source of the word "Pontiff" has to be ignored -- or else accepted as "that's how God wanted it to be".
Pontifex Maximus -- the (Roman Empire) Emperor. They back off from that now... but keep the "Pontiff" portion.
Ratzinger wrote of misunderstandings due to the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Protestants speaking differing {theological] languages...
I understand the RC language. Few Roman Catholics seem to understand ours. They claim to, and point to converts among themselves when doing so, but then don't seem to recognize the circular reasoning, the special pleadings, and all the needing to look at it "just so" to make it all appear to work.
Or else if they do know our 'language'-- they don't post much on THIS forum [the following said in stage whisper]--> and I can't say I blame them.
For if they do much acknowledge ANYTHING that may go counter to RC apologetic, if they don't at the same time overwhelm that same admission with reams of something, anything to attempt to invalidate or limit what they just confessed to -- then katy-bar-the-door -- their co-religionists will come after them with teeth sharpened.
Meanwhile, what occurs but relentless efforts to force unconditional surrender (to the claims their own ecclesiastical community makes for itself) enforcing that on whoever can be either cooed at or else intimidated, with those immune to either then being insulted one way or another in order to set up pretext for later attacks on whomever would dare to agree with those who challenge particular Roman, resisting both the smiling invitation, and all the intimidation (which used to include threats of extermination).
Is THAT Jesus? Is that the way He goes about His business? For long centuries Rome did seem to say, yes, if it comes to that. Fall in line, (fall at our feet --even kiss the pope's feet as per pope Gregory VII) or suffer for not doing so --whichever way we choose.
I think I understand how that sort of thinking evolved to be. I could trace some of it, even through the scholastics --- but my, oh, my how long (and how many words?) would it take to tell the story?
“All scripture” does not include the gibberish that you wish to live by.
No, Paul did not write in Greek, he could barely speak a few words in Greek. Everything he wrote was written in the language of Yehova.
The Greek translations, no two of which even agree with each other, are simply what predominantly survived Rome’s purge of what they knew to be God’s word, because it was written in the language that he commissioned.
It's good to have a place like this to be able to freely speak about Christian truth with others who at least have the same political world view - we don't waste time arguing with anarchists and liberals and never GET to the parts about Christian truth. I don't mind all that much the few types who always resort to ridicule, bullying and condemning everyone who disagrees with them and who seem unable to ever just talk about things respectfully, because, in the end, they only hurt their own "cause". I also know that not everyone is going to accept the gospel - for whatever reason they may have - but I do pray for everyone and don't hold onto bitterness. It IS a ministry in its own right and I try to not ever forget that.
So, I appreciate Free Republic for the invaluable service it provides in keeping us informed about pretty much everything that is going on in our world in a way that we cannot depend upon the press or our own government to do. Thanks for your informative posts and for sharing your thoughts. God bless you and have a great Sunday.
That the Septuagint actually is? What is this? Must I assume you now arguing along lines of "if it was in the Septuagint then it was Hebrew holy writ"? Is that it?
That make no sense whatsoever. Do you even read what is sent to you???
Here, again, you do need to establish (rather than merely assert or assume) that the Jews either;
OR changed what that consisted of some time soon after the overthrow of the Temple.
Is your own thinking actually that shallow?
And I haven't re-invented the wheel (again!) on this thread, either!
I already touched upon how the Septuagint came into being -- as have others who have pinged you directly also.
It began as translation of the Pentateuch. Other 'books' as it were, were added later. Surely you know this?
We do not know what the contents were at the time of Christ.
And even though it likely there were they duetercanonical works associated with it (bearing in mind it was for a long time not in codex form, but a collection of scrolls) there is no reason to equate the presence of whatever was there, of these works which have been otherwise well enough established to have not EVER been considered by the religious authorities (those who did in fact sit in Moses's seat) to have been part of their holy writings -- to be so simple because Greek translators had put them there.
Why must I repeat every blasted thing I ever say to Roman Catholics on this forum? It's all there in black and white.
Did Jesus read from Greek language scrolls in the Temple in Jerusalem? Or did he read from Hebrew scrolls?
As another forum participant mentioned -- Paul was well versed in Hebrew Law. He WAS a Pharisee. He was by his own description "a Pharisee of Pharisees".
Do you actually suppose that Paul read and studied the collection of what the Jewish religious authorities recognized as Hebrew holy writ -- in Greek???
If so, then you must establish WHY -- rather than have me guess about it.
This showing why (or how) must use sources near as contemporary to time of Christ and the Apostles as is possible.
I say that for reason you do seem to have been ignoring all of those.
But I'm expected to ignore those too, and go instead with whatever "the Church" decided hundreds of years later -- even as it flies in the face of multiple sources and evidences (which may not have been as easily available to Church Councils as they are today, curiously enough...)
BD as well as others right on this thread already explained that point. Who is it you think created the Septuagint and why did they? And then, to what version of it are you referring? Do you know the actual history of it?
Why don’t you show us the proof you have for your claim that Paul didn’t write his epistles in Greek? While you’re at it, show us your evidence that ANY of the New Testament books were originally written in Hebrew or that Hebrew was the language God “commissioned” the NT writers to use. Are we to believe God was impotent to preserve His word against mere humans? I certainly don’t believe that because I know we can be assured that God’s word will never pass away. Heaven and earth may pass away, but the word of our God will never pass away.
Hey great. Wonderful.
If I ever try and argue that it came from "the first baptist church of billy bob" you may have a point in refuting that.
But I didn't say that. Not in the least.
Now if you would care to enter into this particular conversation as an adult, then okey-dokey.
But you have not.
Save the childish stunts for the children. I'm not impressed (other than negatively).
But any 'ol day you decide to be a grown-up, then you may find someone who would be willing to enter into actual conversation.
Until then, I don't know what to say.
I don't necessarily wish you a 'nice night' in return as some sort of "go in peace because you are so right" for you are far from being "right".
But I don't wish nightmares on you either, for although there are many here who irritate me something fierce -- for some reason -- I don't have the same level of irritation at your own (in my view) very weak RC apologetic.
I doubt Jesus holds it against you...He likely enough recognizes you are trying to do the right thing -- and stick up for Him -- as best as you may know Him?
If so -- I can assure you I am acquainted with Him, and am doing the same, though in freedom not every word I write is entirely washed in the blood of the Lamb.
If only the Spirit could visit with you and open up your understanding.
That could be a 'nice night'. He can make even correction be something of a pleasure. I could hope for that, for you, while I keep seeking Him out on even the seemingly little things, myself.
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