THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[Elsie]

Is this a double down

Or a triple?

Perhaps a QUADRUPLE down of your posting this stuff?

[Elsie]

...if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

Got any evidence; any traditions; any appearances by Mary where sins have been retained?

[WVKayaker]

just another non-apology ...

Just another vapid response. No refutation on the theme, just another knee-jerk attempt to change the thread. Even Peter tries to focus on Christ, not His mother or some other substitute for the "Real Thing"! We certainly see nothing in Scripture to support bowing or praying to dead people, but quite the opposite!

2 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6: 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
17 Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
18 And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

[Steelfish]

Douay-Rheims Bible
Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

[vox_freedom]

We certainly see nothing in Scripture to support bowing or praying to dead people, but quite the opposite!

I pray to the Mother of Jesus for intercession on my behalf and on behalf of those I pray for. She, who was the only human-being ever born without original sin, and upon His will was brought up into Heaven.
"Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen."

[vox_freedom]

[RegulatorCountry]

She, who was the only human-being ever born without original sin

I guess that fully God and fully man thing flies out the window where Mary is concerned?

[vox_freedom]

As Catholics, this is what we believe:

MARY WAS CONCEIVED WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN Pope John Paul II

If you disagree with Catholic teachings so-be-it, but it is not something that is disputable.

[RegulatorCountry]

I do disagree with your belief. However, I am concerned about another belief that undermines a core tenet of Christianity that, up to this point, I’d believed we shared. That would be that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.

The prayer that you posted stated that Mary was the only human being ever born without Original Sin. In order for that to be correct under your own beliefs, that would mean that Jesus Christ was not fully human.

Address this inconsistency, please. Thank you.

[vox_freedom]

As we know Jesus was God and Man. Both. Nice try.

[RegulatorCountry]

Yes, I know that. I would like for you to recognize the problematic nature of the prayer you posted, however. Mary cannot be the only human born without original sin if, as we both believe, Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man.

As I requested before, please address this inconsistency. Thank you.

[vox_freedom]

Mary wasn’t God, but the only human born without the stain of Original Sin.

[daniel1212]

So evidently you also subscribe to the blasphemy that according to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus.." - Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

And just where amidst the close to 200 prayers in Scripture do you see even one prayer addressed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in instructions on who to address in prayer to Heaven, or any one called queen of Heaven, unless it was pagans?

You seem to be new to this thread so i will repeat what i said in #1239 ,

Considering that the only people who prayed anyone else in Heaven but the Lord are pagans,

and that the only Queen of Heaven in Scripture is that of pagans,

and that the only ones bowing does before idols and making requests are idolators,

and that the only one shows having the power to hear virtually infinite incessant prayers addressed to them in Heaven from earth is the Lord,

and that we are admonished not to think of men above that which is written, (1Cor. 4:6)

and as Scripture does not testify to the plethora of platitudes ascribed to her, of which are those only given to God,

then we must conclude the Mary of Catholicism is not that the holy women of Scripture, and the devotion to her is much of the flesh, and likewise the visions of her, or from the devil, who seeks to bring souls to worship instruments of grace as God, who alone is exalted as Caths do to their Mary.

As said, in Bible times one could not explain kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer!

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

As even St. Epiphanius is quoted by Haydoc as saying, while Haydoc violates it, "it is no less criminal to vilify the holy Virgin, than to glorify her above measure."

[caww]

<<<...."I pray to the Mother of Jesus for intercession on my behalf

and on behalf of those I pray for".....>>>

[Springfield Reformer]

Oh, the books in the Bible fell from the skies.

Well no, but they didn't come from anything distinctively Catholic either. For the first two centuries, more or less, we were all just Christians.  Then somewhere along the way those dudes in Rome started in on a major pride ride and bang, zoom, next thing you know, you've got schism.

No need for the early Church Fathers, these theologians and historical scholars that for decades sorted out the fine filaments, word for word, cross checked and fact-checked with the received oral traditions, ritual, and custom, discarded some books and included others, in putting together the Bible.

"fine filaments?" Really?  Polycarp was using almost the entire NT we have today by the early part of the Second Century. The later councils basically rubber-stamped what the churches at large had already recognized as the God-breathed Scriptures. Day late, dollar short.

This Petrine authority suddenly vanishes.

Nice try, but something has to exist before it can vanish, and, as I mentioned before, Peter Lampe's scholarly work demonstrates there was nothing like a Petrine continuity of authority for the first 160 years or so of the Roman Christian community.

The Biblical anarchy and chaos from freewheeling and freelancing scriptural interpretation is evident in the mess that can be referred to what Hillaire Belloc’s says in his book “The Great Heresies” that unlike other heresies, Protestantism has spawned a “cluster of heresies.”

Yes, yes chaos is bad. But there are worse things ...

Worse,

Oh my, we agree on something? What - what could be worse than chaos?

these street preachers like TD Jakes, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren are all over the place on the issue of gay marriage and homosexuality:

Are you saying you think that error is worse than chaos? That truth matters more than whether everyone has peaceful, Borg-like agreement? Amazing.  You're almost there.  Another inch in our direction and you'll be a Protestant for sure. :)

Check this famous piece of “scriptural interpretation” rubbish from Billy Graham that is symptomatic of the Biblical anarchy from those who deny Petrine authority.

“I think that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but the Bible also teaches that pride is a sin, jealousy is a sin, and hate is a sin, evil thoughts are a sin. So I don’t think that homosexuality should be chosen as the overwhelming sin that we are doing today.” Billy Graham

Let me ask you a question or two.  Remember Jesus telling some folks they had committed the unpardonable sin? Which one was it? And who committed it? Was it a gay person? Or a straight person? Was it a sexual sin? Or a spiritual sin? Was the offending party a heathen, backwoods ne'er-do-well? Or a highly respected, extremely well-educated, and very religious individual?

Peace,

SR

[vox_freedom]

Do you know what the word “intercession” means or do you have access to a dictionary? I pray to Mary so that she may intercede with her Son, Jesus. Come on, that’s not too difficult to understand.

[RegulatorCountry]

Mary wasn’t God, but the only human born without the stain of Original Sin.

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. He was human. He was born. He was born without the stain of original sin.

You are denying the humanity of Jesus Christ which your own church deems heretical.

As I've requested before, please address this inconsistency.

[vox_freedom]

good night...

[Springfield Reformer]

Awesome. I love it.

[caww]

...”Mary... the only human born without the stain of Original Sin”....

one of you is wrong and I don't think it's Him! God says... we do not have a high priest, who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been 'tempted as we are', yet without sin. (Jesus) .....Hebrews 4

Based on your position 'that Mary was sinless' she automatically is disqualified as intercessor for she cannot sympathize with our weaknesses if she is as you say sinless.. ..

So you have a problem....